Restructuring!

Moderator: (Leichenberg) Necrarchs

User avatar
Max II
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:57 pm

Restructuring!

Post by Max II »

For a while now, I have been giving some thought to the future of the Sanguno-Leichenbergish Union. One idea that keeps occurring to me is to reorganise it as a looser collection of states ruled by the Rossheim family, the Rossheim Dominions (or something along those lines); I feel that this is probably a more accurate reflection of the reality than the notion that this is a single coherent state.

I don't envisage any significant changes to Sangun at this time, but I feel that something more interesting can be done with the Cibolan territories. One possibility is to resurrect the idea of a "South Cibolan Confederation" (Südsiebenbergebund). The Confederation would comprise two coherent and autonomous kingdoms, Leichenberg and Stiermark, along with a number of "common bailiwicks" (Gemeine Vogteien) under shared control: Treisenberg, Volksburg, Südmoorland and Südkap.

In order to fit the new administrative and national boundaries to the revised terrain map I have been working on, it would be necessary to claim some additional territory. Although forum activity has been rather patchy of late, behind the scenes I have been giving a lot of thought to various schemes so the publication of some of these ideas may be enough to convince the leading lights of the MCS. For example, Max I may be returning from a long absence, in which case there will have to be some reordering of responsibilities to accommodate him.

It occurs to me that I'm basically talking to myself here, so without further ado, here are a few maps I have prepared to illustrate what this vision might look like:

Image
The South Cibolan Confederation as it would appear on the MCS Map. I have decided not to try to show the boundaries of the subordinate administrative divisions as it would be very hard to squeeze everything in.

Image
Proposed claims and boundary changes: current territory is shown in grey; land to be claimed is shown in light blue and land to be abandoned in darker blue. It is quite a substantial expansion, but I haven't been greedy in a very long time...

Image
Proposed administrative subdivisions:

Common Bailiwicks:
SK - Südkap (Südkap Fortress)
SM - Südmoorland (Moorheim)
TB - Treisenberg (Alttreisen)
VB - Volksburg (Volksburg)

Kingdom of Leichenberg:
BT - Barental (Barenburg)
KR - Krahlen (Krahlen)
KS - Kronstadt (Kronstadt)
LB - Leichenberg (Leichenberg)
LH - Leichenhafen (Leichenhafen)
NM - Neumarkt (Neumarkt)
NR - Neurossheim (Neurossheim)
OE - Oeschental (Oesch)
OW - Oberwald (Oberwald)
WM - Westmark (Waldenburg)
ZL - Zwergenland (Zwergenheim)

Kingdom of Stiermark:
MS - Mittelstiermark (Hermanburg)
OS - Oststiermark (Stierschweig)
WS - Weststiermark (Essen)

***

One of the most interesting aspects from my point of view is the possibility of reclaiming and rebuilding the ancient capital of Treisenberg (named Alttreisen to differentiate it from Neutreisen, the former name of Kronstadt) in time for the ten-year anniversary of its foundation.
Max II
Reigining Emperor of Sangun
King of Steeria and Highfield

Sometime King of Leichenberg

User avatar
Nathaniel
Vagrant who is the owner of two celeriacs
Posts: 1377
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:55 am

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Nathaniel »

I'm glad you're keeping Volksburg.

Given that the Principality of Kujirashi-Walstadt was once upon a time a vassal to the Sangunese emperor, perhaps we could work something out... A bit like the HRE or something?
Nathaniel
NATHANIEL ANDRE UTAS AYREON-KALIRION IBN AL-MAJEED BIN SATHRATI OF WAFFEL-PAINE
[spoiler]Emir of Sathrati
Imperial Prince of Shireroth
Prince of Natopia
Prince of Leng
Duke of Cheshunt
Duke of New Aquitane
Marquess of Zy-Rodun
Count of Anmutstadt
Count of Cape Farewell
Master of the Cathedral of Eternal Slumber
Bosarch of New Aquitane
Lord von Zauberförde
Lord der Stadt der Gestrandeten ...
Knight of the Holy Lakes
Scion of the King of Kings[/spoiler]

User avatar
Max II
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Max II »

Volksburg was our first toehold on Cibola since the fall of Treisenberg; it goes without saying that we would want to retain it!

Regarding Wahlstadt...what sort of thing do you have in mind? At this stage, my plans are still quite flexible.
Max II
Reigining Emperor of Sangun
King of Steeria and Highfield

Sometime King of Leichenberg

Janus Eadric

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Janus Eadric »

This is exciting! :up1:

User avatar
Walter Grant
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Walter Grant »

I heartily approve of any development here! This looks rather like the structure the Musican Federation might have if Lichbrook and Yardistan went independent. As to your decision about keeping the administrative boundaries broad on the MCS map, I can't agree more - for a history project relating to Hawshire, I've been pouring over maps of Holzborg and the United Empire (once Landingberg) and, well, the maps speak for themselves. It is a temptation with these Germanic, vaguely HRE-flavoured micronations, but the reality is ugly and bewildering.

Image
Source: MCS map ver 11.0.0b

If you are entertaining external time investment, by the way, I'd be happy to get involved in doing some creative writing around these places.
W. Grant, Steward-Count of Hawshire-Dura, Alderman of the City of Hawshire
Played by Benkern.

Janus Eadric

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Janus Eadric »

Blast from the past with those Holzborg-Landinberg maps. :OO: I forgot how crazy that was.

User avatar
Nathaniel
Vagrant who is the owner of two celeriacs
Posts: 1377
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:55 am

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Nathaniel »

My idea was something like:

An Empire of Sangun and Leichenberg consisting of various sovereignties, of which Walstadt is one (even though it's self-governing in all respects). Each sovereign leader is an elector, and whenever a new monarch needs to be elected, an imperial diet meets and elects. Each sovereign has a vote depending on his/her rank (Walstadt is a principality so not very high of a rank). In reality you'd have a majority for all elections since you can control the sovereigns of the various other places :P

I just would like to connect Walstadt more to you, but still keeping it legally independent.

What do you think?
Nathaniel
NATHANIEL ANDRE UTAS AYREON-KALIRION IBN AL-MAJEED BIN SATHRATI OF WAFFEL-PAINE
[spoiler]Emir of Sathrati
Imperial Prince of Shireroth
Prince of Natopia
Prince of Leng
Duke of Cheshunt
Duke of New Aquitane
Marquess of Zy-Rodun
Count of Anmutstadt
Count of Cape Farewell
Master of the Cathedral of Eternal Slumber
Bosarch of New Aquitane
Lord von Zauberförde
Lord der Stadt der Gestrandeten ...
Knight of the Holy Lakes
Scion of the King of Kings[/spoiler]

User avatar
Max II
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Max II »

Janus Eadric wrote:This is exciting! :up1:
Hehe, thanks!

The current situation, with all those isolated cities, has been bothering me for a while. I've wanted a more cohesive block of territory, but at the same time it's hard to generate the motivation, let alone the activity, to justify the necessary expansion when it's just you.

Or so I've been telling myself.

Now I've decided to just go for it...think big! It's easy to talk yourself into seeing all the difficulties.
Walter Grant wrote:I heartily approve of any development here! This looks rather like the structure the Musican Federation might have if Lichbrook and Yardistan went independent.
That's no coincidence, as I think a federal/confederal structure can work well in this hobby. I also want to explore an unforeseen but interesting side-effect of the lichgravial system I've created: every lichgrave must have their own piece of territory and since most of my characters are lichgraves, that requires me to parcel up my land! The impetus for this restructuring is the reincorporation of Max I; given that he is bound to the heartlands of Leichenberg, that would leave Max II without a lichgraviate.
Walter Grant wrote: As to your decision about keeping the administrative boundaries broad on the MCS map, I can't agree more - for a history project relating to Hawshire, I've been pouring over maps of Holzborg and the United Empire (once Landingberg) and, well, the maps speak for themselves. It is a temptation with these Germanic, vaguely HRE-flavoured micronations, but the reality is ugly and bewildering.
At risk of sounding terribly arrogant, most HRE-flavoured simulations simply don't understand the processes which led to the fragmentation. Frederick Barbarossa didn't suddenly decide to draw lots of squiggly lines over a map of Germany one day, so it's no surprised that when micronationalists do that, the result is less than inspiring... :mrgreen:

I would actually say that the best HRE simulation I have been involved with is Shireroth, because the processes at work there are similar to those seen in medieval Germany. Not only has Imperial authority weakened, but the original duchies have themselves fragmented to an extent, creating new states as the traditional counties are combined or partitioned.
Walter Grant wrote:If you are entertaining external time investment, by the way, I'd be happy to get involved in doing some creative writing around these places.
Creative input is a good thing! What do you have in mind?
Max II
Reigining Emperor of Sangun
King of Steeria and Highfield

Sometime King of Leichenberg

User avatar
Max II
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Max II »

Nathaniel wrote:My idea was something like:

An Empire of Sangun and Leichenberg consisting of various sovereignties, of which Walstadt is one (even though it's self-governing in all respects). Each sovereign leader is an elector, and whenever a new monarch needs to be elected, an imperial diet meets and elects. Each sovereign has a vote depending on his/her rank (Walstadt is a principality so not very high of a rank). In reality you'd have a majority for all elections since you can control the sovereigns of the various other places :P

I just would like to connect Walstadt more to you, but still keeping it legally independent.

What do you think?
Broadly speaking, I like that. It sounds to me that the way forward is to have Walstadt join the Confederation/League or whatever we term it, with a similar structure to the one we tried back with our revived Treisenberg. I'm still not clear in my own mind how Sangun will fit in, yet...but Walstadt would be easy to work in without sacrificing it's sovereignty.

I've also purposely left Moorheim and the nearby islands separate from the two main kingdoms, because Orion expressed an interest in doing something there at one time. Whether that comes to anything is another matter, but I'd like to keep the option open.
Max II
Reigining Emperor of Sangun
King of Steeria and Highfield

Sometime King of Leichenberg

User avatar
Nathaniel
Vagrant who is the owner of two celeriacs
Posts: 1377
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:55 am

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Nathaniel »

Kujirashi-Walstadt would still be part of Natopia... so it would have a very strange relationship, one which will be quite amusing to explore!

Perhaps we could look at it a bit like Austria-Hungary, one half of all realms belonging to one side and one half to the other. Kujirashi-Walstadt would be like Bosnia, being part of both... and at the same time, part of Natopia.
Nathaniel
NATHANIEL ANDRE UTAS AYREON-KALIRION IBN AL-MAJEED BIN SATHRATI OF WAFFEL-PAINE
[spoiler]Emir of Sathrati
Imperial Prince of Shireroth
Prince of Natopia
Prince of Leng
Duke of Cheshunt
Duke of New Aquitane
Marquess of Zy-Rodun
Count of Anmutstadt
Count of Cape Farewell
Master of the Cathedral of Eternal Slumber
Bosarch of New Aquitane
Lord von Zauberförde
Lord der Stadt der Gestrandeten ...
Knight of the Holy Lakes
Scion of the King of Kings[/spoiler]

User avatar
Max II
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Max II »

Exactly!

Perhaps the key is not to make the SSC a formal state. I wonder if we could ask the MCS for a separate colour for the Confederation and then stripe the various territories with it? I don't know if that's ever been tried before?
Max II
Reigining Emperor of Sangun
King of Steeria and Highfield

Sometime King of Leichenberg

User avatar
Nathaniel
Vagrant who is the owner of two celeriacs
Posts: 1377
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:55 am

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Nathaniel »

It would be fun in any case!
Nathaniel
NATHANIEL ANDRE UTAS AYREON-KALIRION IBN AL-MAJEED BIN SATHRATI OF WAFFEL-PAINE
[spoiler]Emir of Sathrati
Imperial Prince of Shireroth
Prince of Natopia
Prince of Leng
Duke of Cheshunt
Duke of New Aquitane
Marquess of Zy-Rodun
Count of Anmutstadt
Count of Cape Farewell
Master of the Cathedral of Eternal Slumber
Bosarch of New Aquitane
Lord von Zauberförde
Lord der Stadt der Gestrandeten ...
Knight of the Holy Lakes
Scion of the King of Kings[/spoiler]

User avatar
Max II
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Max II »

Then lets go for it!
Max II
Reigining Emperor of Sangun
King of Steeria and Highfield

Sometime King of Leichenberg

User avatar
Nathaniel
Vagrant who is the owner of two celeriacs
Posts: 1377
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:55 am

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Nathaniel »

What's the first step?
Nathaniel
NATHANIEL ANDRE UTAS AYREON-KALIRION IBN AL-MAJEED BIN SATHRATI OF WAFFEL-PAINE
[spoiler]Emir of Sathrati
Imperial Prince of Shireroth
Prince of Natopia
Prince of Leng
Duke of Cheshunt
Duke of New Aquitane
Marquess of Zy-Rodun
Count of Anmutstadt
Count of Cape Farewell
Master of the Cathedral of Eternal Slumber
Bosarch of New Aquitane
Lord von Zauberförde
Lord der Stadt der Gestrandeten ...
Knight of the Holy Lakes
Scion of the King of Kings[/spoiler]

User avatar
Max II
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Max II »

I reckon we need a very basic charter (or some such document) creating the Confederation; we might be able to rehash parts from the Old Cibolan Confederation.

I've created a map with stripes overlaid across the "national" colours...but while it's distinctive, I'm not sure about it:

Image

The stripes need to be of a colour that a) fits with all the other colours b) doesn't hide the lettering and c) is distinctive. It might be hard to find a shade that would work.
Max II
Reigining Emperor of Sangun
King of Steeria and Highfield

Sometime King of Leichenberg

User avatar
Nathaniel
Vagrant who is the owner of two celeriacs
Posts: 1377
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:55 am

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Nathaniel »

Maybe one with a little more colour?
Nathaniel
NATHANIEL ANDRE UTAS AYREON-KALIRION IBN AL-MAJEED BIN SATHRATI OF WAFFEL-PAINE
[spoiler]Emir of Sathrati
Imperial Prince of Shireroth
Prince of Natopia
Prince of Leng
Duke of Cheshunt
Duke of New Aquitane
Marquess of Zy-Rodun
Count of Anmutstadt
Count of Cape Farewell
Master of the Cathedral of Eternal Slumber
Bosarch of New Aquitane
Lord von Zauberförde
Lord der Stadt der Gestrandeten ...
Knight of the Holy Lakes
Scion of the King of Kings[/spoiler]

User avatar
Nathaniel
Vagrant who is the owner of two celeriacs
Posts: 1377
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:55 am

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Nathaniel »

Or maybe we don't need to show it thus on the MCS map.
Nathaniel
NATHANIEL ANDRE UTAS AYREON-KALIRION IBN AL-MAJEED BIN SATHRATI OF WAFFEL-PAINE
[spoiler]Emir of Sathrati
Imperial Prince of Shireroth
Prince of Natopia
Prince of Leng
Duke of Cheshunt
Duke of New Aquitane
Marquess of Zy-Rodun
Count of Anmutstadt
Count of Cape Farewell
Master of the Cathedral of Eternal Slumber
Bosarch of New Aquitane
Lord von Zauberförde
Lord der Stadt der Gestrandeten ...
Knight of the Holy Lakes
Scion of the King of Kings[/spoiler]

User avatar
Max II
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Max II »

I think the stripes are one of those ideas that are great in theory but not-quite-so-great in practice. ;)

I shall attempt to draw up some kind of charter tomorrow.
Max II
Reigining Emperor of Sangun
King of Steeria and Highfield

Sometime King of Leichenberg

User avatar
Raz
The Mikado, as played on catgut strings
Posts: 4263
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:00 pm

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Raz »

If only I had a principality!

User avatar
Max II
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:57 pm

Re: Restructuring!

Post by Max II »

I've retrieved the text of the Charter of the United Principalities:
General Provisions

Article 1
Treisenberg is a confederation in real union with the Empire of Greater Sangun. It comprises:

(i) The Duchy of Rossheim-Slavonia-Volksburg (Herzogtum Rossheim-Slawonien-Volksburg);
(ii) The Duchy of Rossheim-Leichenberg (Herzogtum Rossheim-Leichenberg);
(iii) The Principality of Rhaetia (Principadi da Räetoria);
(iv) The Bailiwick of Wahlstadt (Vogtei Wahlstadt);
(v) The Common Subject Territory of Treisengart (Gemeine Herrschaft Treisengart).

Article 1.1
The Duchy of Rossheim-Slavonia-Volksburg, the Duchy of Rossheim-Leichenberg and the Principality of Rhaetia are sovereign principalities administered internally by their respective princes in accordance with their own laws.

Article 1.2
The Bailiwick of Wahlstadt is administered by a Bailiff appointed by the Grand Prince.

Article 1.3
The Common Subject Territory of Treisengart is administered collectively by the ruling princes in the name of the Grand Prince.

Article 2
The capital of Treisenberg is Neutreisen

The Grand Prince

Article 3
The Emperor of Greater Sangun is the head of the confederation with the title of Grand Prince of Treisenberg.

Article 4
The Grand Prince is responsible for conducting the foreign affairs of Treisenberg in coordination with the Empire of Greater Sangun and in consultation with the ruling princes.

Article 5
Should the Grand Prince be absent for a period of three months without prior warning or communication, then the ruling princes shall have the discretionary right to conduct such diplomacy as may be deemed necessary for the functioning of the state until such time as the Grand Prince is able to return.

The Council of Princes

Article 6
The Grand Prince is assisted by a Council of Princes comprising:

(i) The Duke of Rossheim-Slavonia-Volksburg;
(ii) The Duke of Rossheim-Leichenberg;
(iii) The Prince of Rhaetia;
(iv) The Bailiff of Wahlstadt, if he or she is of Princely rank.

Article 7
In addition to administering the Common Subject Territory of Treisengart and counselling the Grand Prince on matters of foreign policy, the Council of Princes is responsible for conducting relations between the principalities and coordinating matters of common policy.

Amendments to the Confederal Charter

Article 8
The Confederal Charter may be rescinded, altered or amended only by unanimous vote of the Council and with the consent of the Grand Prince.
I'm not sure how much of that is useful though, given that proposed new confederation is, legally at least, a rather different beast. Perhaps it would be more productive to discuss what we want from it and then go from there?
RasmOS wrote:If only I had a principality!
A sentiment I share almost daily...
Max II
Reigining Emperor of Sangun
King of Steeria and Highfield

Sometime King of Leichenberg

Post Reply

Return to “Empire of Sangun and South Cibola”