Time for a retconsolidation...

[Max II]

One of the biggest problems with the Union is its highly fragmented nature, with constituent countries spread across three continents (four, if one includes Riskai). Until now I've resisted the urge to consolidate as that would either mean abandoning historic territories, or moving them...something I'm not keen on doing as a rule.

However, Stormark's withdrawal from Sicilia (the old territory of Treisenberg) has opened up a possibility for a retcon that actually makes sense: what if Sangun was moved from its present and rather isolated location in Corum to the islands above Leichenberg? Jingdao's return to nothern Cibola makes the presence of a culturally-related Sino-Keltic population on the continent less implausible. Moreover, Sangun was originally a protectorate of Treisenberg, an unlikely state of affairs given that the latter never expanded beyond the confines of its home continent. A final argument in favour is that fact that Sangun is currently a member of the CTFA football association!

If one examines the earliest MCS map showing Treisenberg, one notices that the majority of the easternmost island was not originally part of its territory. If Sangun's location was retconned to that island, it would require almost no disruption to the historical narrative of Treisenberg. Indeed, Treisenberg's establishment of a protectorate over Sangun would have been highly plausible stepping-stone toward the Principality's eastward expansion onto the mainland. Sangun's relocation would therefore allow for the construction of a much more coherent in-sim history that also remains true to out-of-sim events:

600 ASC - Sino-Keltic peoples arrived on the easternmost island of the Inner Sea (perhaps refugees from a mainland state?)
600-2000 ASC - The three districts of Mihara, Hakone and Ishizuchi consolidated into a Sangunese state
c. 2000 ASC - Germanic peoples found the Principality of Treisenberg to the west.
c. 2030 ASC - Treisenberg establishes a protectorate over the Duchy of Sangun
2030-50 ASC - Treisenberg expands onto the mainland ("Slavonia"); the principality becomes the Empire of Treisenberg-Slavonia and Sangun becomes a Kingdom.
c. 2075 ASC - Treisenberg merges with Germanian state to the south; Sangun breaks free and becomes a tributary of Stormark.
c. 2100 ASC - United Cibolan State collapses; Treisenberg re-established.
c. 2150 ASC - Treisenberg's mainland territories become a loose confederation of three principalities: the core territories fall under the rule of a Grand Prince elected by the three regional princes.
c. 2200 ASC - The United principalities collapses. Most of the mainland territories are lost; the core lands of the Grand Prince become subject Kingdom of Stormarkian suzerainty.
c. 4400 ASC - Sangun, by now ruled by the House of Rossheim, regains independence. Subsequently gains control of town of Volksburg
4600-700 ASC - A cadet branch of the House of Rossheim founds Leichenberg.
c. 4700 ASC - Leichenberg joins with other remnant of Rhaetia and Walstadt to form New United Principalities. As old lands are still under Storish control, a new capital is founded at Neutreisen. The Emperor of Sangun is chosen as Grand Prince.
c. 5000 ASC - New United Principalities severs ties to Sangun and becomes Cibolan Confederation, but soon collapses: Walstadt falls under Jingdaoese control whilst most of the remaining territories are annexed to new Kingdom of Leichenberg. The King of Leichenberg later inherits Sangunese throne, leading to eventual establishment of Sanguno-Leichenbergish Union, and when Stormark finally withdraws from Treisenberg's old territories, the Union reclaims them.

These dates are very approximate as I can't recall off the top of my head exactly when certain things happened, but as a general progression, it makes sense.

[Max II]

The following maps give an idea of what the retconned Union would look like:





The pink districts are Sangun, the pale blue districts are Treisenberg proper (Treisen and Vaduz) and the rest comprise Leichenberg. The overall capital of the Union has been moved to Treisen, renamed Altreisen to distinguish it from Neutreisen (currently named Kronstadt).

[Nathaniel]

I hope you consider this very carefully before deciding.

It sounds like you're asking for advice or opinions (if you're not, ignore me and accept my apologies).

I am very cautious about moving countries on the map. It feels wrong and it upsets me. From day 1 in the Micras community, I've had great difficulties with it. It's upset my history of Hurmu (Lontinien was first an island west of Stormark's Heartland, then it ended up on Apollonia...). Alexandria used to be on Apollonia too, and Hurmu fought a war (when a constituent state of Arminy) with Alexandria (Arminy and Alexandria were neighbours and the invasion was by land). But now we can't talk about this.

Sangun is ancient. So is Treisenberg. This kind of retconning may feel good now, but it may disturb the timeline and the interactions people have had with the countries before.

I have been king of Nidaros (including the Riskai region) and been a prince of the confederation, so I hope I am not completely out of line. If you do decide to do this though, I will not complain but do my best to consolidate my history efforts to be in line with this one.

[Nathaniel]

That said, your arguments for the whole thing are almost convincing. So I am not 100% against it

[Max II]

I'm always happy to hear a second opinion...so comment away.

I am very cautious about moving countries on the map. It feels wrong and it upsets me. From day 1 in the Micras community, I've had great difficulties with it. It's upset my history of Hurmu (Lontinien was first an island west of Stormark's Heartland, then it ended up on Apollonia...). Alexandria used to be on Apollonia too, and Hurmu fought a war (when a constituent state of Arminy) with Alexandria (Arminy and Alexandria were neighbours and the invasion was by land). But now we can't talk about this.

I'm not a fan of it either, which is why I haven't seriously considered something of this magnitude before.

Sangun is ancient. So is Treisenberg. This kind of retconning may feel good now, but it may disturb the timeline and the interactions people have had with the countries before.

Sangun is ancient, but for much of that time it hasn't had a defined location (or even been mapped). When it first appeared on the map back in 2005, it occupied one of the islands on the southern side of Corum...and it was only there because Harald decided it should go there. In those days I wasn't terribly interested in the Micras map and so never really took much notice of that sort of thing. When Sangun left Stormark later in the year for its first bid at an independent existence, it was removed from the map and you have to fast-forward six years before it reappeared again, this time on the other side of the continent. Again, the location was chosen by Harald and grateful as I was (and still am) to him for making the claim on my behalf, it wouldn't have been my first choice of spot. Because of this, a year later I adjusted the claim, moving the Sangunese heartland to the island it currently occupies while abandoning part of the original claim. So in effect, Sangun's current configuration has only existed since September 2012.

The more I consider this idea, the more I feel it makes sense. I genuinely don't see that the change will greatly affect anybody who still cares. It might be different if Stormark was still interested in Sicilia, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I also recall that Franz Josef planned to assign Sangun some territory on Cibola, although the plan was cut short by the abortive merger with Treisenberg's neighbours and any records were sadly lost when the Principality's forum was deleted during a failed coup.

I'm all for continuity, but the simple fact is that neither Sangun nor Treisenberg have enjoyed much of that. This retcon is an opportunity to give both countries a proper, plausible history, in keeping with the Sector's current emphasis on cultural development. One of the reasons I haven't tried to write up the history of the Union is because it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense as things stand!

I have been king of Nidaros (including the Riskai region) and been a prince of the confederation, so I hope I am not completely out of line. If you do decide to do this though, I will not complain but do my best to consolidate my history efforts to be in line with this one.

Riskai is a completely different proposition. I wouldn't even consider moving it because it has been there continuously since August 2009 and without the context of the Kingdom of Nidaros, it really wouldn't make any sense. So Riskai stays in place.

[Edgard II]

Treisenberg... I remember those days fondly. If you have room for one more participant, I would love to help. I always watch developments closely, as I was a citizen of Treisenberg as well. Franz Josef was played by David Redstone who was once a good friend... I did not know the forums were deleted, however. I was under the impression they were simply taken offline.

[Deimos Jasonides]

WHAT! Franz Joseph was David Redstone? Oh God... Eight years later and now I find this out? Hahaha

[Orion]

Really, Ric? You didn't know that was Redstone?

I do agree with Ric that moving Sangun via retcon is a bad idea. I've moved stuff in the past myself, and now regret a lot of those decisions now that I'm trying to tie it altogether. I would suggest as an alternative considering an event that would force the relocation of the Sangunese population from Corum to Cibola. Say a tsunami, a mad emperor (just look at Rasmus), a plague, or other such event that could depopulate the entire island and force their emigration to Cibola. Even though it may not have a globe-shattering effect as say moving Shireroth from Benacia to Keltia would, it still creates a "historical hiccup" as I call it when someone tries to retrace history and see and it one place, and then suddenly it's in another place.

Also, and I don't recall if I said this already or not, but feel free to use/claim Rhaetia for whatever purposes you like if you think it will be at all helpful.

[Max II]

Treisenberg... I remember those days fondly. If you have room for one more participant, I would love to help. I always watch developments closely, as I was a citizen of Treisenberg as well.

Of course! Old Treisenbergers are always welcome.

I did not know the forums were deleted, however. I was under the impression they were simply taken offline.

The forum of the United Principalities is still up, as is a website (at least they were when I checked recently). The deletion I referred to occurred when one of the regional Dukes tried to take over and most of the activity prior to that date was lost. I have a few records of my own, including a partial list of all the noble titles handed out under the Principality which I compiled a long time ago when my memories were much fresher.

I may well post some of the material here in an effort to preserve the legacy of those days.

WHAT! Franz Joseph was David Redstone? Oh God... Eight years later and now I find this out? Hahaha

...

I do agree with Ric that moving Sangun via retcon is a bad idea. I've moved stuff in the past myself, and now regret a lot of those decisions now that I'm trying to tie it altogether. I would suggest as an alternative considering an event that would force the relocation of the Sangunese population from Corum to Cibola. Say a tsunami, a mad emperor (just look at Rasmus), a plague, or other such event that could depopulate the entire island and force their emigration to Cibola. Even though it may not have a globe-shattering effect as say moving Shireroth from Benacia to Keltia would, it still creates a "historical hiccup" as I call it when someone tries to retrace history and see and it one place, and then suddenly it's in another place.

Personally, I find mass emigrations even less plausible!

I do see where you and Ric are coming from and in most cases I would agree with you, but I'm increasingly of the opinion that is one of those rare instances where a retcon actually makes sense. Sangun should never have been located in Corum; it really is a as simple as that. There's never been any real connection with the place and the idea that Treisenberg would maintain a protectorate half the world away doesn't tie in with its history. Moreover, unlike the proposed location which has only ever been occupied by Germania, Treisenberg and Stormark, Sangun's current spot has been occupied a good many countries that never figured in its history.

It's not an easy decision and I will probably give it another day or so to really think it through before laying any firm plans, but as things stand and having listened to all the arguments against the idea, I am leaning towards this move.

Also, and I don't recall if I said this already or not, but feel free to use/claim Rhaetia for whatever purposes you like if you think it will be at all helpful.

Thanks, Orion! In an ideal world, I'd love to have Rhaetia represented somehow...it's just a question of pixel-accounting, as always.

[Shyriath]

*whispers*

Do it.

[Shyriath]

Also, I keep meaning to ask: what's the situation with Südkap?

Also also: although it looks weirder in English, wouldn't it properly be Alttreisen rather than Altreisen?

[Max II]

Some slightly revised maps of the proposed changes:





Sangun is limited to the easternmost island and the separate capital district has been eliminated to avoid clutter. Traditionally, Sangun's capital was named Kokubu or Konodai, but as both literally mean "state capital", it could plausibly be a descriptive term or the name of a district rather than that of the city; the various names of Japan's former capital, Kyoto, have a similar etymological basis.

The smallest island has been reassigned to Treisenberg proper to maintain historical continuity; as its principle settlement was never designated under the Principality, I have provisionally named it Rotenstein in honour of Treisenberg's founder.

[Max II]

Also, I keep meaning to ask: what's the situation with Südkap?

Good question. The simple answer is that I meant to give it up in the course of a previous land exchange, but either I forgot to indicate its removal to the MCS or they forget to remove it!

Also also: although it looks weirder in English, wouldn't it properly be Alttreisen rather than Altreisen?

It would, but as you say, the former looks weird! I should probably reinstate the second t, though.

[Shyriath]

The simple answer is that I meant to give it up in the course of a previous land exchange, but either I forgot to indicate its removal to the MCS or they forget to remove it!

The latter, I think. Now that I'm thinking about it, I vaguely remember taking it off Gloria Mundi at the time, which is why it's not on there.

[Max II]

I think you could be right...it certainly hasn't appeared on recent subdivision maps.