Imperial bloodlines

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Mira Raynora Major
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Mira Raynora Major »

I don't think this is a bad idea of Ryker's by any means, but I do feel we need to be clear about the implications.

As I understood it, descent from Raynor- however distant, vague, or contrived- was a sine qua non of being Kaiser(ess); while in practical terms a zie might have gained the throne by bequest, conquest or election, the legitimacy of zir claim was nevertheless founded in blood. But by introducing the concept of Kaiser(esse)s who are explicitly not descended from Raynor, we are in effect renegotiating a central tenet upon which the Kaisership- and indeed the Shirerithian state- is founded.
Ryker wrote: Well I'm here on record saying that Ryker and Raynor are so far separated by blood and marriage that the two are just short of being different species. Any relation that future historians "find" I do hereby renounce in advance (are all my bases covered? ). I don't know how they would even find a tangible link considering that I just showed up with little to no memory of my pre-Shireroth past and (in an unreleased story I have somewhere around here) came from a place which no one knows existed and doesn't exist anymore anyways.
While I respect your choice OOC, had I been more aware of this stance at the time, then there may well have been "IC" repercussions.

Lichbrook's rulers may be thought of as "super legitimists" whose rule over the former Duchy of Brookshire is rooted in their claim to be the heir general of Raynor, through descent from his daughter Mira...who in their eyes was scandalously passed over for the Kaisership in favour of the descendants of her younger brothers. Remember that Raynor inherited Brookshire from his mother, which implies that secession to the duchy has always been cognatic rather than agnatic, even if at one time females were not eligible for the Imperial Throne.

Given that the rulers of Lichbrook have such a dim view of the Lines of Metzler and Mortis, who they regard as little more usurpers, can you imagine how they would view the claims of a Kaiser who doesn't even pretend to be descended from Raynor?
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Hadrian Myksos »

Vilhelm Benkern wrote:It's not a question of validity - in canon terms, I believe Raynor isn't a real person, and if zie was, we've got a mythical version of zie in our history books.
:OO:









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Jonathan
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Jonathan »

In Elwynnese canon, it's only 300 or so years since Raynor massacred our villages and subdued us to the evil Boomist terror. He was very real. We will not forget. Nor will we forget. Elwynn endures, and Elwynn prevails!
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Vilhelm Benkern
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Vilhelm Benkern »

When that alternate time speed that conceived, was reunification with Shireroth considered a potential future situation? :geek:
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Mira Octavius-Aryani
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Mira Octavius-Aryani »

Mira: exactly why I see a value in contriving (false) descent. We can all wink and nod about their legitimacy but paper over it.

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Kaiseress Kizzy
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Kaiseress Kizzy »

I found it difficult to connect my family to the lines of Raynor because I was born on a different continent and so was Sehml. He was elected and I inherited from a non-relative. I didn't see how it could be possible. Perhaps the Dracoheim of Yardistan is the ancient, ancient, ancient origin of the settlers of the Dracoheim of Natopia.... and perhaps thats how the Line of Drak can wind its way back to Shireroth?
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Ryker
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Ryker »

Well, I claim to be the same species as him. We share the same Y chromosome or something. Tada!

P.S. How are the Safirians related to Raynor. Not even the same species and planet. I am not at all quesioning their legitimacy; quite the contrary. I am wondering why no one freaked out then.
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Hadrian Myksos »

Ryker wrote:Well, I claim to be the same species as him. We share the same Y chromosome or something. Tada!

P.S. How are the Safirians related to Raynor. Not even the same species and planet. I am not at all quesioning their legitimacy; quite the contrary. I am wondering why no one freaked out then.
They probably ate a Raynorian. :wink:
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by HIH Prince Daniel »

Ryker wrote:Well, I claim to be the same species as him. We share the same Y chromosome or something. Tada!

P.S. How are the Safirians related to Raynor. Not even the same species and planet. I am not at all quesioning their legitimacy; quite the contrary. I am wondering why no one freaked out then.
IIRC Andreas made a tenous link between the House of Miłarna (itself a cadet branch of the House of Ašura) and the House of Fenrir, and conveniently omitted most of the misadventures that placed Raynor's blood in Rei's veins. I don't even, either.
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Mira Raynora Major
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Mira Raynora Major »

In case clarity is needed, I am not criticising anyone's choices. All I am saying is that we should not be blind to the "in sim" implications of those choices.
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Ryker »

So this go as far as it needed to or are we going to bring this back from the dead a year from now and start a civil war?
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Vilhelm Benkern »

I was hoping for more consensus on this idea, but let's just see how it goes. For now, I think your use of 'sangloran' for your own Kaisership seems like a good way to go forward - others can embrace this if they want. We can also put Daniel III and Carl I under this category perhaps.
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by HIH Prince Daniel »

Why do Stewards need bloodlines?
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Ryker
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Ryker »

Cause it's fun.
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Mira Octavius-Aryani
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Mira Octavius-Aryani »

Stewards have become Kaisers so it makes sense to involve them in that.

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Vilhelm Benkern
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Vilhelm Benkern »

Remember, Carl, that historically the position of Steward was essentially a designation of heir to the Kaisership. Therefore it makes perfect sense that most stewards would come from Imperial Bloodlines, and indeed that ruling stewards would invariably justify their temporary straddling of the Golden Mango throne with that blood. Check out the list, I refer you to Celestis I, Stjepan I, Nikkolo I, Shyriath I etc.

I personally view those who do not specify their Imperial Bloodline (in line with Rossheim's sine non qua) as belonging to the most natural bloodline for that person, or some minor branch not currently recognised in the histories, or potentially not a valid Kaiser, as in the case of Cedris I.
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Verion
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Verion »

Stewards are a bit weird too. Not all ruling stewards are included, only the ones that ruled between Kaisers.
1.Titus Morvayne, Prefect of Shirekeep, Count of the Skyla Islands
2.Eki Aholibamah Verion, Queen in the North
3. Ludovic Verion, Lord of Blackstone and Governor-General of the Iron Company
4. Jeremy Harwinsson Archer, super sleuth

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Vilhelm Benkern
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Vilhelm Benkern »

Yes, it's a weird list. Essentially "sole ruling sovereigns of Shireroth". Therefore Stewards are only included where no Kaiser was reigning at that time; equally, the Landsraad "rules" when no Kaiser AND no Steward were reigning.
Vilhelm Benkern DEOMI, Member of the Order of the Dragon, Silver Swan, Red Dragon
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Kaiseress Kizzy
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Kaiseress Kizzy »

I've connected the line of Drak to the Line of Grifos, hopefully not too far out of the bounds of belief.

http://shireroth.org/shirewiki/Line_of_Drak
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Re: Imperial bloodlines

Post by Raz »

Our jokes become a lot less funny now they are confirmed.

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