Welcome!

[Max von Rossheim]

Interesting.

There are a number of obstacles to a Treisenberg revival, not least the fact that it isn't really mine to revive. Yes, I was one of the three ruling princes of the United Principalities and before that was both a duke and a minister; I even acted (briefly) as regent when FJ was away on holiday. But none of that gives me any substantive claim to its name and heritage. Ironically, I am one of the few Stormarkers who hasn't ruled Treisenberg when it was an autonomous kingdom within the Viking Empire!

Having said that, a revival is not impossible. I would need to talk to a few people and would also be interested to discover whether any former Treisenbergers might be interested in getting involved again, but it might be possible to arrange something.

Now I see what you're saying about Sangun, but I'm not about to give up a project that I've been working on for eleven years. Added to that, reviving Treisenberg without Sangunese involvement means a separate project...and that in turn means putting the current claim on hold (even though it seems to be progressing nicely) and a delay of many months.

But...I have a counter proposal: a Sangunese-Treisenberger dual monarchy on the Austro-Hungarian model. That is very possible; indeed for some months Treisenberg was a dual monarchy named Treisenberg-Slavonia...

Thoughts?

[Elijah Ayreon]

I like that idea.

"Imperial Principality of Treisenberg-Slavonia and [nice Sangunese name (Shishin maybe? )]" would be my suggestion. Imperial because of its connections to the Sangunese emperor.

[Orion]

I should have said "revival of culture" since what I was actually suggesting was not a revival of Treisenberg itself, but rather the establishment of a successor state founded by former Treisenbergers.

That said, I wouldn't want you to give up Sangun. A dual monarchy does sound interesting - or for that matter a reformation of the United Principalities.

[Max von Rossheim]

The Empire of Greater Sangun was established as a multinational state centred on three nationalities: the Sangunese, the Norse of Riskai and the Cibollan Saxons of RSV; the last group I envisaged as an amalgam of German-speaking refugees from Treisenberg, the Holzer Empire and Germania, so in that sense, it is already a cultural successor to the United Principalities.

However, since the territorial reorganisation gives a much greater weight to German-speaking Cibola, a dual monarchy seems like it could be a possibility.

"Imperial Principality of Treisenberg-Slavonia and [nice Sangunese name (Shishin maybe? )]" would be my suggestion. Imperial because of its connections to the Sangunese emperor.

I was thinking more in terms of Sangun-Treisenberg (or, if we don't want to use the Treisenberg name, Sangun-Rossheim). "Sangun" would refer to the Empire of Sangun (Sangun and Riskai etc) whilst "Treisenberg" would be the name of the Cibolan territories (RSV, "Leichenberg" etc.)

or for that matter a reformation of the United Principalities.

How would you envisage that working? Would you be willing to revive Rhaetia?

[Elijah Ayreon]

Oh! I thought you meant this place... But you mean abolishing all that you already have and make it to a dual monarchy? In that case "Empire of Sangun" + "Kingdom of Treisenberg-Slavonia-whatever"

And have the Emperor ex officio King of the other place.

[Max von Rossheim]

Something like that, yes...two separate countries in an MCS-recognised personal union. But that's just one possible option; I'd be interested to see if other concerned parties have different ideas.

[Elijah Ayreon]

Could we please organize the union then like this:

Sangun = autocratic one-person-decides-life-and-death regime
Cibola = constitutional liberal democracy with the King-Emperor as a figurehead

a bit like Finland under Russia.

[Max von Rossheim]

That really rather depends, Ric.

Sangun/RSV has been my personal project, with some help and support from you and friendly nations like Stormark and, more recently, Batavia. Now if other people want in and are prepared to bring something concrete to the table, then I'm more than happy to make space for them and give them a say in matters...but I'm not handing over the fruits of a decade to people who aren't willing or capable of making a genuine contribution.

If you want a democratic constitutional monarchy, then I want citizens who merit the trust I place in them.

[Elijah Ayreon]

Of course, an autocrat would need advisers and I will happily be an adviser again

(I think I have more claim to the Shishin title than that Kaspar's son... also!)

The liberal democracy of Cibola would be more like a show. Like always most things would be handled by consensus anyway. And the dual monarchy could be asymmetrical too.

Sangun could handle foreign affairs, defence, policing, courts... while the democratic assemblies in Cibola would take care of lovely things like health care, education

[Max von Rossheim]

You're always welcome, Elijah...and yes, under Sangunese law you are entitled to your father's titles and lands, although you would have to be created Marquis Shishin under a fresh patent.

Regarding Cibola...to be honest, a democratic administration didn't really feature in my plans for the region, but then I didn't expect there to be much interest. And that's really the crux of the matter...if more people want to help out and become involved, then it will cease to be just a personal project and there will be a consequent need for greater political representation- which I would be willing to grant.

Having said that, I'm not a fan of democracy and would much prefer to revive the structure of the old United Principalities, which functioned as a confederacy of three sovereign principalities under the overall leadership of a Grand Prince. In recent months there has been a lot of debate about the merits and flaws of confederalism but the truth is that a similar system did appear to be working in Treisenberg- until FJ abolished the experiment whilst Ryan and I were on our summer holidays.

My ideal, therefore, would be something more akin to "Archipelago on Micras", albeit more tightly focussed...but with each constituent territory guaranteed its autonomy and integrity on the proviso that it doesn't unilaterally secede and co-operates with the others on matters of common interest. For me, that is the legacy of Treisenberg (in its final incarnation as an independent country, at least) and I would love to see if the system could be made to work.

[Elijah Ayreon]

Ys sure we can do that! I just wanted a different role for HoS in Sangun and in Cibola, a difference that would be paradoxal

I am sure we can find taht too... haha

[Max von Rossheim]

I think that could be something to work towards, but as things stand, the territories I have chosen on Cibola don't really lend themselves towards a complicated political situation (and we don't have the numbers or activity to merit that either). Ideally, I'd like to change that situation and in some months time be in a position to claim additional territories which can be given to other people to manage as new federal/confederal states...but without additional interest, that's just a dream.

[Orion]

I have toyed with the idea of reviving Rhaetia ever since Treisenberg collapsed. Thing is, I knew it would never stand on its own as an independent micronation, and so it simply went to the wayside. I would certainly be willing to reconstitute Rhaetia for this project. I would most certainly prefer a system similar to the way we managed things in the United Principalities. We had a very smooth flow of government going there.

[Max von Rossheim]

I'd love to have you involved and I'd love to see Rhaetia back in business!

I've raised the possibility of a Treisenberger revival with Stormark and they, at least, have no objections...so it's really a matter of working out how to get from where we are now to where we would like to be with a minimum of disruption.

Here's a possible framework that tries to combine some of the ideas expressed in this thread:

We convert the Greater Sangunese Empire into the dual monarchy of Sangun-Treisenberg; the Sangunese half (Sangun and Riskai) remains much as it is now, whereas the Treisenberg half (the Cibolan territoriea) functions as a self-governing confederation of sovereign principalities- RSV, Rossheim-Leichenberg and Rhaetia, if you are amenable (plus any others that may join/be created in the future).

Treisenberg will have its forum here on Bastion.

Within Treisenberg, the Sangunese monarch acts as a purely constitutional figurehead "Grand Prince" for the purposes of international representation (this will save us the hassle of starting a new nation for the purposes of mapping etc.), but the actual business of common affairs will be handled by a "Council of Princes" (as under the United Principalities) who have the option of selecting one of their number (except the Grand Prince) to chair the Council and act as the head of the confederal government.

Sovereignty will reside with the individual princes, who will will retain full internal autonomy over their principalities- again, much as before. In other words, no-one will be interfering with Rhaetia, or trying to take it away from you; for me, that's a sine qua non. We may need to impose some restrictions on unilateral secession, although in the case of Rhaetia (particularly if we claim territory specifically for it) I'm of the opinion that it's yours to do with as you will.

Speaking of Rhaetia's territory...if you do decide to proceed, I see three options:

1. We establish a forum and then we apply to the MCS for suitable land at a later date;
2. We break of part of the current claim for Rhaetia now (although it probably won't be the territory you want);
3. I go back to the good people at the MCS and beg for a little extra land of your choice on which to establish Rhaetia, on the grounds that the project has gained another active participant.

Ric/Elijah: since you have links to the Sangunese side, you could act as a general advisor or have some sort of co-ordinating role between the two halves of the dual monarchy. It depends what you would like to do.

Okay...that's as far as I've got so far. Any thoughts/concerns/queries?

[Orion]

All of the above sounds fine with me.

As far as Rhaetia getting any territory, I'm not particular to anything large. The historical remnant encompasses roughly what I've outlined in this modification of your claim proposal:



I have not reduced the Leichenberg territory, but as you can see by the size of Rhaetia, doing so would not reduce the claim by much. That, however, is your call as I do not wish to take land away from you without your consent.

Another option would be that you shift your claim east so that it's contiguous with Rhaetia's territory.

[Elijah Ayreon]

Oh I know! I can be the Grand-Prince/EMperor's representative in Treisenberg!

That way you (Rossheim) can be both Emperor/Prince and a local prince in Slavonia but as two different characters.

[Max von Rossheim]

Excellent! We're getting somewhere...

I have not reduced the Leichenberg territory, but as you can see by the size of Rhaetia, doing so would not reduce the claim by much. That, however, is your call as I do not wish to take land away from you without your consent.

I'll talk to the MCS people and see if we can't get the land without sacrificing territory elsewhere; I mean with you on board we will have increased the total population by 50% and I have tried to be reasonable with claims in the past, so I might get away with it.

Another option would be that you shift your claim east so that it's contiguous with Rhaetia's territory.

Again, I'd love to, but I have specific reasons for wanting the area I've already asked for. Yes, it's horribly isolated but that's the price I seemingly have to pay for getting land I actually want!

Oh I know! I can be the Grand-Prince/EMperor's representative in Treisenberg!

That way you (Rossheim) can be both Emperor/Prince and a local prince in Slavonia but as two different characters.

We can probably arrange something along those lines.

The Emperor-Grand Princess (no, that's not a typo for those unfamiliar with the Sangunese monarch) will almost certainly be Sadamara but I might keep Max as Duke of RSV; still not completely sure how I'm going to organise the territories...

As an aside, the character of Max was originally supposed to be a local "avatar" of Sadamara, but I never got around to exploring that idea.

[Max von Rossheim]

Okay, we have a bit of a problem.

Firstly, my original claim has been approved before I had a chance to talk to the MCS about Rhaetia. Secondly, all hell seems to be breaking loose in Cibola, as the big three look set to carve up the last remaining strip of green.

This puts us in an awkward situation. It might be pushing it to ask the MCS for more land immediately (even with good reason) but if we wait too long, the area you want might be gobbled up.

The way I see it, we need to do two things:

1. Get some fora set up on Bastion to represent the Treisenberg half of the Dual Monarchy (which will demonstrate activity and bolster our claim to consideration);

2. Launch a major diplomatic offensive, before we're completely surrounded by our neighbours!

Any thoughts before I set these policies in motion? Sorry to rush, but I suspect that speed is of the essence here.

[Mordechai B.E.]

I don't think any of the Cibollan powers will get much more land, Stormark might get the land they are asking for now but I don't see any claims being made beyond that small piece of land.

[Orion]

It wouldn't hurt to get things moving as far as a forum of our own is concerned (maybe we can even get a custom theme to mimic the old Treisenberg fora) and diplomacy doesn't hurt either.

My question is: Do we want to call it Treisenberg, or should we choose a new name since it is a successor to Treisenberg?