The Capitalists' Society of Bastion

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Thadeus Laing
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The Capitalists' Society of Bastion

Post by Thadeus Laing »

I hereby form the Capitalists' Society of Bastion, an organization of individuals
and nations engaged in capitalism and fighting for the interests of capitalism and
the free enterprise system.

Executive Chairman: Giles Melang

Signed,

Giles Melang

Andreas the Wise
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Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:40 pm

Re: The Capitalists' Society of Bastion

Post by Andreas the Wise »

Cool. If this gets off the ground VBNC may choose to be involved.
The character Andreas the Wise is on indefinite leave. But he does deserve a cool war ribbon.
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However, this account still manages:
Vincent Waldgrave - Lord General of Gralus
Manuel - CEO of VBNC. For all you'll ever need.
Q - Director of SAMIN
Duke Mel'Kat - Air Pirate, Melangian, and Duke of the Flying Duchy of Glanurchy
Cla'Udi - Count of Melangia
Vur'Alm Xei'Bôn - Speaker of Nelaga, Minister of Interior Affairs, and a Micron

Thadeus Laing
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Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:33 am

Re: The Capitalists' Society of Bastion

Post by Thadeus Laing »

Our two main goals to this point attained, now begins the hard,
some might say tedious and boring, phase of our work; that is, developing
a set of standardized prices for various assets. MITO was a predecessor to this
effort, but it concentrated primarily on natural resources. This
project will focus on all possible assets for a virtual economy. Moreover,
supply and demand and inflation and deflation will have to be considered.
The models of Anunia may come in handy for that area of work.

The core of this effort will be done through one, possible several,
MS Excel spreadsheets. If we can get a free Microsoft Live office account
that has password protected editing, then we could conceivably allow
economic participants to add values on the fly.

The "Standard Cost Reference Directory" as it is tentatively called will be fully optional.
Some variability would be built into the prices. Perhaps a range for a particular
asset, so allow companies to mark up or mark down prices within that range.
XYZ company offering tennis shoes for sale at 12 Erb and
ABC company offering tennis shoes at 3000 Erb is not realistic. More realistic would
be both XYZ and ABC companies having the option to sell tennis shoes (let's say
they are required to be new tennis shoes) from 12-275 Erb, and making that range
in line with other costs for, say, a running jacket and a pair of jeans.

Andreas the Wise
Posts: 2189
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:40 pm

Re: The Capitalists' Society of Bastion

Post by Andreas the Wise »

Google docs is your friend for editing - you can set it up so that everyone can view it and only certain people can edit. Though I would point out (from your example) that 275 erbs is a lot - you have to bear in mind the reality that most people have 2 to 5 thousand GELT (to use the Gralan name for the currency), and governments often only have 20-40 thousand, so costs need to be proportional to that. 275 is a large amount then.

EDIT: Bah, you've interested me enough. I'm in. Let's give this whole 'working economic framework thing' another go. Besides, I'll be finished uni in three weeks, and I'll have free time for a month or two after that.

Some immediate thoughts:
- Bug me about it in three weeks time, and I'll spend the day or two needed to upgrade the bank interface enough that others could do adminning apart from me. In particular I'm thinking: letting nation admins add and remove territories within their nation; and an admin setting to delete a nation and recover their money all with one button. I might also set up a way to view the log of admin initiated actions - then we could happily appoint other people admin even if they didn't have the 100% trust of everyone, and I could make the view of admin initiated actions public, so others could keep tabs on their actions if there was any worry.
- For standardised prices, it's probably worth thinking what sort of economy (approximately) we're doing this for - practical OOC services, IC 'micro-transactions' (the sorts of things an individual would buy), IC 'macro-transactions' (like infrastructure projects, government purchases etc.) - they would imply different zones. A thought is occurring to me though - a logarithmic scale (or something like that) might be helpful to make a rule of thumb for converting rough real world prices into GELT currency - then we could say 'Well, a government doing this would cost $300 billion so it'll translate to roughly x GELT.' but do that such that you can do things for $30 million and $300 billion and the difference in GELT is not that much. It's just a thought, you don't have to agree with it.
The character Andreas the Wise is on indefinite leave. But he does deserve a cool war ribbon.
Image
However, this account still manages:
Vincent Waldgrave - Lord General of Gralus
Manuel - CEO of VBNC. For all you'll ever need.
Q - Director of SAMIN
Duke Mel'Kat - Air Pirate, Melangian, and Duke of the Flying Duchy of Glanurchy
Cla'Udi - Count of Melangia
Vur'Alm Xei'Bôn - Speaker of Nelaga, Minister of Interior Affairs, and a Micron

Andreas the Wise
Posts: 2189
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:40 pm

Re: The Capitalists' Society of Bastion

Post by Andreas the Wise »

I did some maths more on the logarithms thing. Log wouldn't work, the distribution isn't right, but how about x^0.4 (where x = real world monetary value), for x>100 000. That gives us the following sort of rough values
Real World \ SCUE \ Real world amount in words
100000 100
1000000 251 One Million
10000000 630
100000000 1584
1000000000 3981 One Billion
10000000000 10000
100000000000 25118
1000000000000 63095 One Trillion
So a company spending a million dollars is ~250 SCUE (which is about right for normal transactions), spending a billion is ~4000 SCUE (which is more than what most people have), and spending a trillion is ~63 000 SCUE (about the full size of most government reserves). Those numbers seem reasonable to me, though if you wanted to make it a little lower you could shave it x^0.35 (which would make one trillion ~ 16 000 SCUE, ten trillion ~ 35 000 SCUE, so on that numbering most governments would have ~ ten trillion. For reference, a million is then ~125 SCUE, and a billion ~1400 SCUE).

You could go for a more complex operation, but a single power of operation is fairly easy to remember, and does the job.
The character Andreas the Wise is on indefinite leave. But he does deserve a cool war ribbon.
Image
However, this account still manages:
Vincent Waldgrave - Lord General of Gralus
Manuel - CEO of VBNC. For all you'll ever need.
Q - Director of SAMIN
Duke Mel'Kat - Air Pirate, Melangian, and Duke of the Flying Duchy of Glanurchy
Cla'Udi - Count of Melangia
Vur'Alm Xei'Bôn - Speaker of Nelaga, Minister of Interior Affairs, and a Micron

Thadeus Laing
Sea Elf, Sea Elf Run
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:33 am

Re: The Capitalists' Society of Bastion

Post by Thadeus Laing »

Andreas, you provide a lot of food for thought. Thank you for sharing the concept
of exponential calculations for the currency. I too have been making calculations.

Let us assume for a starting point that Earth based values will be sufficient to base
the economy on, for realism purposes and for simplicity's sake. Some of you may
be thinking as I was thinking at first that gold would be a good basis for the currency.
So I examined "global gold", if you will, as if gold were all the wealth in the world. (It is not;
copper and platinum and tobacco and available labor for that matter have scarcity too).
Gold was culturally considered to be a valuable material in many places (except in Utopia).
It was, in short, a simple and easy measure to use, one which we can replicate for Micras.

According to Wikipedia, it has been estimated that all the gold mined by the end of 2011
totalled 171,300 tonnes. At a price of US$1500 per troy ounce, reached on 12 April 2013, one
tonne of gold has a value of approximately US$48.2 million. The total value of all gold ever
mined would exceed US$8.2 trillion at that valuation.

By those estimations, if all SCUE units were based on gold, in 2011 1 SCUE unit would
be worth about 0.12 tonnes of gold. With one ounce of gold being $1500 per troy ounce,
in 2011 1 SCUE unit would have been worth $5,803,107.63. When putting together these
calculations I thought that that $5,803,107.63 was an interesting number. It is a lot of
money but not astronomical, like, say the GDP of, for example, a Western European nation.

According to the statistics on the SC bank right now, the average Micran personal (non-business,
non-governmental) bank account has 2278 SCUE in it. If SCUE were based on all the gold
mined on Micras in all of Micran history, and that number was also the same as all the gold
mined on Earth to the year 2011 (for ease of simulation's sake), then the average Micran citizen
currently has $13,219,479,181.14 worth of wealth. In short, we presently are all billionaires!
We, on average, are not as rich as Bill Gates of the USA or Carlos Slim of Mexico, but some
of us may be even more so! While an economy where everyone is essentially billionaire might be fun
at first site, and very egalitarian, it wouldn't be fun. The endless partying and designing private
mansions might be fun, but the economics would be uninteresting.

So, instead, I looked at the net worth per capita on Earth. Here is a very interesting chart:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_dist ... per_capita . By comparison,
If we take only personal bank accounts, and assume every personal bank account on the SC bank
corresponds to one individual per capita, the Micras average net worth per capita for those who
choose to participate in the economy via the SC Bank is is 2278 SCUE. This does not
include land, royal titles, etc.; it only includes what is in their bank accounts.

I decided to base the purchasing power of one SCUE on the total number of SCUE circulating in
our economy by total net worth per capita on Earth. In the Wiki article referenced above, on
the chart the amount is $26,202 for global net worth per capita. I looked for at least more than
an hour on the Internet for this amount--I had it in mind but needed to find the exact amount.
I did not want to use the net worth per capita for the US because so many micronationalists
are not from the US and so that would seem too biased towards one nation. I also did not want
to use the net worth per capita for Switzerland a peaceful and neutral country that regularly jockeys
for richest nation in the world because sadly the entire world is not such a seeming paradise. There
are rich countries and poor countries on Earth. For realism, we must have rich countries and poor
countries, at least with which to start. Some Micran nations are already implementing economics
that make them richer than other nations on Micras. Once prices become standardized it will be
ever more important for nations to ensure they have good economic policy.

In the end I chose $26,202 for the global net worth per capita in US dollars on Micras. (Convert to the
Euro without exchange rate to get the equivalent Euro amount.) Therefore, 1 SCUE = about $11.50.
For example, 1 SCUE will buy you a good lunch in the United States and a variety of other Earth countries
if SCUE could be converted into Earth currency. This is a good number because the numbers after the
decimal on the SCUE amounts can still be used for meaningful smaller amounts.

This number will be used as the starting point for the prices. UPDATE: I have already created a Microsoft Office
SkyDrive account and am working on the Excel spreadsheet which will have prices. Hopefully it will be possible
to post the link to the Excel file soon. Also, it will have a photos column so all those tanks and guns that people
are designing, among other things, can have their day in the sun...again. Perhaps we will see a new arms race! :madviking:

Andreas the Wise
Posts: 2189
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:40 pm

Re: The Capitalists' Society of Bastion

Post by Andreas the Wise »

Some good research there. I look forward to seeing what you end up with on the excel spreadsheet for prices.

Thing is though, is making us each an individual citizen a good approximation for micronational purposes? Many of us IC represent the rulers of entire provinces, effectively representing hundreds of thousands of people. Of course, if people are interested in using the economy primarily as if they were individual, that valuation seems sensible, but I haven't found many people interested in doing it that way - particularly because it's not like we have the snazzy graphics to compete with something like Second Life, and most of the things would be pretty meaningless to buy (one IC house is fun, more than one starts to get silly. I know this from experience - Novatainia once had a brief thriving housing market, but once everyone had a house (or had upgraded into a mansion) interest in it died).

What do others think? (he asks on the off chance there's more than two people reading this thread)
The character Andreas the Wise is on indefinite leave. But he does deserve a cool war ribbon.
Image
However, this account still manages:
Vincent Waldgrave - Lord General of Gralus
Manuel - CEO of VBNC. For all you'll ever need.
Q - Director of SAMIN
Duke Mel'Kat - Air Pirate, Melangian, and Duke of the Flying Duchy of Glanurchy
Cla'Udi - Count of Melangia
Vur'Alm Xei'Bôn - Speaker of Nelaga, Minister of Interior Affairs, and a Micron

Thadeus Laing
Sea Elf, Sea Elf Run
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:33 am

Re: The Capitalists' Society of Bastion

Post by Thadeus Laing »

Others post what you think but my response to Andreas' above comments is as follows.
Is making us each an individual citizen a good approximation for micronational purposes?
Well like I said global net worth per capita was a good starting point. Now that
I read your concerns, Andreas, I am thinking now that perhaps making everyone
really rich might be a better move because, in fact, most individuals either a)
have their own nation or b) have a subdivision of a nation, for example, a duchy.
In other words most micronationalists have their own states and by virtue of that
most micronationalists are rich and certainly not worth a measly $26,202. Because
of your comments, Andreas, I am going back to the drawing board with regards to
the base net worth per capita.

By the way, I consider Andreas to be an honorary member of the Society as long as he
does not air cynicism about micronational economics too much. ;)

Andreas the Wise
Posts: 2189
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:40 pm

Re: The Capitalists' Society of Bastion

Post by Andreas the Wise »

I'm still quite partial to a power based correlation rather than a linear correlation between SCUE currency and earth currency - I think this will provide a better range of values given the sort of numbers people have to play with in SCUE currency and the sorts of numbers people can play with in the real world, and also means that we can have individuals, governments and companies with the sorts of wealth we see displayed currently without having to change things around too much. But I'm open to alternatives if the majority are interested in them.

(As a side note, I wouldn't trust any of the summary statistics too much, given they use all non-inactive accounts to calculate them, but there are always a bunch of cases where someone has multiple accounts because they left and came back (or just have different characters) but nobody has bothered to mark the old accounts 'inactive', so they still show up in the statistics. There are also a number of nations that are due for removal but I've been putting that off until I can finish programming a page to do that for me in one step)
The character Andreas the Wise is on indefinite leave. But he does deserve a cool war ribbon.
Image
However, this account still manages:
Vincent Waldgrave - Lord General of Gralus
Manuel - CEO of VBNC. For all you'll ever need.
Q - Director of SAMIN
Duke Mel'Kat - Air Pirate, Melangian, and Duke of the Flying Duchy of Glanurchy
Cla'Udi - Count of Melangia
Vur'Alm Xei'Bôn - Speaker of Nelaga, Minister of Interior Affairs, and a Micron

Thadeus Laing
Sea Elf, Sea Elf Run
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:33 am

Re: The Capitalists' Society of Bastion

Post by Thadeus Laing »

Using the exponentially increasing conversion would have everyone still getting very
rich. I calculated the y-square of 2278 for the average per capita wealth in SCUE and
the result was $247,676,213.41 USD! Since I will be compiling a price list, I looked at
how much it would cost to purchase a $500,000 mansion and the cost was 190.36 Erb.
Based on more calculations I think x^0.35 is more realistic.

Faced with accepting x^0.35 as the conversion or devising a new arbitrary system I've
decided to accept x^0.35 because it would involve less work. Thank you Andreas for
your wisdom. The more calculations I "rung up" the more it seemed like a bright idea.


However, when creating the actual price list I may still employ and enforce to a small or even a
moderate or large extent 'artistic expression' in determining prices of assets, in order to make
micronational economics conform to my definitions of "fun" and "realistic," in consultation
with other members of the Capitalists' Society, which will be creating the list.

Andreas the Wise
Posts: 2189
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:40 pm

Re: The Capitalists' Society of Bastion

Post by Andreas the Wise »

Sounds like a good plan. I look forward to seeing what you come up with!
The character Andreas the Wise is on indefinite leave. But he does deserve a cool war ribbon.
Image
However, this account still manages:
Vincent Waldgrave - Lord General of Gralus
Manuel - CEO of VBNC. For all you'll ever need.
Q - Director of SAMIN
Duke Mel'Kat - Air Pirate, Melangian, and Duke of the Flying Duchy of Glanurchy
Cla'Udi - Count of Melangia
Vur'Alm Xei'Bôn - Speaker of Nelaga, Minister of Interior Affairs, and a Micron

Thadeus Laing
Sea Elf, Sea Elf Run
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:33 am

Re: The Capitalists' Society of Bastion

Post by Thadeus Laing »

So I've published the link to the draft of the price list. It's in the economics forum. There
are only a few prices on it because it is in the draft stage, phase 1.

Seeing how similar efforts that were rec-war related involved
multiple people and councils and committees and such, I have created an organization
council called CRIC to accomplish compiling this list.

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