I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

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Emile
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by Emile »

How about declaring Eura as "wildlands", so that there can easily be new "mini nations" there that don't require an update to the big maps or the city lists? And then if there are enough noobs for some kind of "Archipelago 2", then it could be "contained" like Archipelago was, with it's own mapping project etc. Or something like that, maybe it's been tried before.

In any case, so far the only signs of my presence have been the occasional group of motorcycle riders among the badlands and radioactive Babkhan ruins of northern Eura.

Kai Jackson

Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by Kai Jackson »

How about reducing the waiting period for claims to one month?

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Mira Raynora Minor
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by Mira Raynora Minor »

Craitman wrote:The MCS has been pro-single-citizen nations ever since I became AdGen, so I'm not sure where the idea that they're not permitted to claim has come from. Birgeshir and Mailong are two examples of one-man nations on the map at the moment; basically, as long as they claim a reasonable amount, they're good to go :)
In the last few years the MCS has become much more accessible to one-citizen states and aside from the obvious examples of Birgeshir and Mailong, there are now several countries on Micras that are effectively solo-outfits (my own included). It wasn't always like this: when Sangun first appeared in the sector back in 2005, such projects were routinely dismissed as "ego nations" and had to fight for any sort of recognition.
As for the three-month rule, I probably have harsher views on that than some people :P
To me, and most people around these parts, micronationalism (I'll use that as an umbrella term for just any nation building and developing) is a pretty long-term hobby. Three months is a short-time, so if people are actually being put-off by that as an age limit, it's probably for the best. I'd rather the community gained one committed new member a year than twelve who disappear after only a month to never be heard of again, if I'm brutally honest :?
Again, I tend to agree with the Craitster: what's the point of acquiring new people if they vanish immediately the initial surge of enthusiasm wears off? This hobby is about long-term investment rather than short-term gratification and I think it's important to be upfront about that.

Having said that, I do think there is a tendency to ignore newcomers after the initial introductions: expecting someone to develop their own project, alone, with little-to-no encouragement for at least three months (and probably longer, given how insular our nations tend to be) is a lot to ask. The original Archipelago was such a good idea because it provided a "support framework" for these start-up countries and in my opinion, the project failed because disinterest caused this framework to break down.
I have to say, I like the idea of using parts of Eura as an effective Archipelago-esque nation for newbies to join. It'd give new members an area to develop as their own which they can secede if/when they wish. Such a nation, as long as it was actively maintained enough to remain on Micras, would mean we'd not be left in sticky situations that would occur if we abolished the three-month rule and accepted multiple claims of nations that only die-off after a week :)
I think we need to think big: I propose we draw up a simple charter for a "Eurapelago" and then claim the whole of that continent for it (the unoccupied parts, I mean!). As far as the MCS is concerned, "Eurapelago" would be regarded as a single country but in practice would function as a loose confederacy of small, independent nations. Each member state could have a seat in an assembly- more of a mini United Nations than a legislature- to help encourage interstate dialogue. Interested people would then apply to the assembly for membership and a piece of land, which they can use to build their state.

And that's it. No involved storyline or complicated rules...we provide a framework and then let those involved develop as they see fit. It might be helpful for a few of the old hands to join to help set the ball rolling, with a few provisos: their states should be small, i.e. a city and the immediate surroundings; there must be a solemn understanding that this isn't an opportunity to grab extra land for existing projects; and they should be expected to help newcomers settle in. This is really about helping to encourage a new generation, with fresh ideas.

If a state proves successful, whether by attracting new people or merging with its neighbours, it can then leave the project and join the mainstream international community. However, if it subsequently fails, then it's territory should return to "Eurapelago".

One final point. If we do this...we need to give it a real chance. Online communities are a bit like the stock market, in that they are extremely vulnerable to negative vibes; so the very worse thing we can do is start panicking if the project is a bit slow in taking off. Remember...we're in this for the long haul.
Mira Raynora the Younger
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Mira Raynora Minor
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by Mira Raynora Minor »

Emile wrote:In any case, so far the only signs of my presence have been the occasional group of motorcycle riders among the badlands and radioactive Babkhan ruins of northern Eura.
I have to say that I love that image! :mrgreen:
Mira Raynora the Younger
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Emile
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by Emile »

So, what's the status of this?

To bring back the OP:
Scott Alexander wrote:I have been blogging about some of my experiences in micronationalism, Shireroth, and Raikoth, and a lot of people (maybe five or ten) have expressed interest and want to know how to join.

[...]

Bastion. Would you be willing to let random newbie micronationalists come here and get their own top-level country forum? Or create a "Other Small Country" forums that they could start in and maybe grow out of?
The answer so far seems to have been "yes".
Scott Alexander wrote:And MCS (in practice, Craitman). Do you have any ideas here? Is the MCS friendly to single person conworlding countries? Do you think the 3 month waiting period might be turning people off?
The answer seems to have been "yes" too, though people seem attached to the three month waiting period (which makes sense).

Some questions that remain:

Is there really a potential inflow of noobs? So far I have only seen one (I'm nomophilos by the way); I assume that most of the 5-to-10 Scott mentions have been in private communication, or maybe some of the people who sound interested in this thread.

Do you really want an influx of noobs, or is the atmosphere more like "huh, maybe some noobs are gonna come, we need to be prepared"?

'cause if you want an influx of noobs, it would be nice to have some kind of starting point / quick introduction (as others mentioned in this thread), and probaby some kind of designated starting zone - Eura seems popular, I like it as a starting place but it does have the inconvenient of being mostly a big desert continent, which runs the risk of either all the new places having kinda similar flavours ("My people live in the desert and ride camels" - "my people live in the desert and ride donkeys!"), or stretching the believability and coherence ("You remember that desert that had a nuclear disaster? 50 years later, it's a verdant temperate forest).

Central Apollonia has the advantage of having more diverse landscapes, less recent historical baggage (so it's easier to pretend your culture has already been maturing there for centuries), and also more neighbours.

It could totally be the "warring states of Apollonia", where new states emerge (and disappear?) in the previously ignored Apollonian backwaters. Or something like that. Archipelago, but in Apollonia, and without the weird far-future-chaotic-lands backstory.

Royston Merrick

Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by Royston Merrick »

There are enough dead cities in Central Apollonia (like the lost cities of the Silk Road) for proto-nations to cluster around that I don't see the harm in one man bands starting up their little statelets on Bastion and then going for recognition from the MCS at the 3 month mark.

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ari
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by ari »

Okay, so... do we make a new forum for the Micraspelago (or Apollopelago or whatever the glorious future is meant to be named), or use the old Archipelago forum, or just put everything on the top level?
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Harvey
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by Harvey »

When we joined this hobby, did we ask permission? Did we ask nicely for forums? Did we wait for some group of stuffy 20- and 30-somethings to decide how they wanted to process us? Hell no. We broke down the doors, called the old guard a bunch of stiffs, and reinvented everything our way using more modern technology that the others were unwilling to accept. We thrived, they died, and I'm glad it happened that way.

Your plans aren't bad, but they're going to fail - not because of anything you're doing, but because of the nature of they people you're trying to attract. These people shouldn't be taking no for an answer. They shouldn't be waiting for Scott to get back to them. They should be here, insisting they're important at the get-go. But they're not. So they won't stay, just like all the others.

I realize the nature of the paradox; we want those that want to stay, and those that want to stay don't want or need us. Like Scott, I'm all out of ideas on the matter.

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Vilhelm Benkern
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by Vilhelm Benkern »

Hate to break your nostalgia bubble, Harvey, but I think this hobby has come a long way since the time that you guys showed up. Mostly because of you and your friends, but I don't want to give you too much credit, because as you say the technology was there and simply required an ape with opposable thumbs to pick it up.

This thread is one of dozens and dozens of examples this year alone of people coming to this hobby too young, too immature, without any promise. I don't think this thread is about catering to the people that this hobby catered to in the year 2000. I think this thread is about how we turn 5000 ASC years of the work of your generation, my generation and those in between and after into something that (a) won't die particularly soon and (b) represents something that people, creative people, people less frustrated and thinking more laterally than we, people without the exhaustion portrayed in your post and mine, Harvey, will want to partake in.

If you ever come around, and stop lurk-posting, which I hope you do because of lack of time rather than some horrible metamorphosis into an Hesam-lite, we'll be here, furrowing our brows.

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ari
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by ari »

Harvey, these people that Scott is talking about aren't kids. Their continued interest (even Emile's) is still definitely hypothetical, but compared to LW folks we don't really seem all that stuffy and old. Anyway, could we get back to the plotting?
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Mira Raynora Minor
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by Mira Raynora Minor »

ari wrote:Okay, so... do we make a new forum for the Micraspelago (or Apollopelago or whatever the glorious future is meant to be named), or use the old Archipelago forum, or just put everything on the top level?
I vote that we make a new forum and get on with setting it up! Re-using Archipelago might create confusion, which is the absolute last thing we want to be doing.
Harvey wrote:When we joined this hobby, did we ask permission? Did we ask nicely for forums? Did we wait for some group of stuffy 20- and 30-somethings to decide how they wanted to process us? Hell no. We broke down the doors, called the old guard a bunch of stiffs, and reinvented everything our way using more modern technology that the others were unwilling to accept. We thrived, they died, and I'm glad it happened that way.
Most of us were arrogant assholes when we joined this hobby and a decade or more later, those of us who are still around have- for the most part- recognised this! The main difference today is that we are trying to avoid history repeating itself by seeking to engage with a new generation. I don't think this is a futile exercise, even if our efforts have yet to be rewarded.
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Emile
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by Emile »

Mira Raynora Minor wrote:I vote that we make a new forum and get on with setting it up! Re-using Archipelago might create confusion, which is the absolute last thing we want to be doing.
Seconded. Who has a good name suggestion?

"Warring states"? a decent name for a no-man's land from which states might or might not emerge (though "warring" has connotations that those states might be preliminarily busy with war, which neededn't be the case". Has a nice historical taste.

"Barbarian states"? might be better (you can always say that the established people are racist dicks that call your guys barbarians, even if you're perfectly civilized like the Gauls)

"Emergent States"? "Emergent nations"? has third world connotations (not that bad necessarily). Sounds a bit formal and stuffy.

"Uncharted zones?" But then it could cover to the whole world - which may not be a problem actually! There could be an "Uncharted zones of Apollonia" subforum, an "Uncharted zones of Eura", etc. and most of them could be locked, unlocking them would "open them for colonization" by potential new bies.

"Rogue nations"? sounds nice, but Rogue Nations aren't necessarily hoping to get recognized by the international community which is what we want.

"New colonies"?

"The Frontier"? / "The Wild Frontier"?

"Terra Incognita"?

So, preferences? Better suggestions?

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Krasniy Yastreb
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by Krasniy Yastreb »

I like Barbarians.

It says you're not on the level of the established nations, but you're not a force to be mocked or ignored either.

Emile
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by Emile »

"Barbaric zones" or "Barbarian lands" keep those connotations and gives even more leeway to those that want to have a seeming of civilization and refinement - they're just previously undiscovered countries in the barbarian lands.

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ConglacioII
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by ConglacioII »

I would say "The Green", or some variant, except that may be too much of an inside reference...
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Liam Sinclair
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by Liam Sinclair »

"Uncharted zones" doesn't really work as most of the Micras map has been "charted" over the years. "The Frontier" kind of plays along the same lines. Conglacio's suggestion would be rather unique to the Micras map and anyone who has been around for a few months would get the reference. Barring that, "Barbarians" might be the best reference to use, as it also allows the new states that rise out of the old ruins to work that better into their backstory?

Sindre Nemnai
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by Sindre Nemnai »

"The Green Nations" would feel like a very standard euphemism by the established governments on the planet :D
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HIM Keita V
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by HIM Keita V »

Second "The Green"
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Mira Raynora Minor
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by Mira Raynora Minor »

Like Conglacio, I worry a bit that "The Green" is too much of an in-reference for a project that is intended to attract newcomers. Let's be clear here- it's precisely this sort of cliquish, exclusive cultural language that makes it so hard to integrate anyone who hasn't been hovering around the sector for the best part of decade. As a relative newcomer to Shireroth, I find it hard enough to navigate through the Imperial Republic's Byzantine laws and traditions, many of which make very little sense if you weren't around at the moment...and I at least have the advantage of being a trained historian!

"The Green" is a good name and one that I like, but it speaks to old hands like us and I really feel we need to be clear about the object of this project. It's not for us...it's to help encourage newcomers to integrate. Emile- the person arguably best qualified to suggest what might appeal to new arrivals- has suggested "Barbarian Lands" or something along those lines. Perhaps "Barbarians of the Green" or "Barbarian States of the Green" would be a possible compromise? Using the term "barbarian" would immediately convey the intent, whilst mentioning "the Green" would provide a soft introduction to our unique terminology. We would however need to write up a small intro piece, clearly explaiing the concept of "the Green".
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Re: I am sitting on a resource I don't know how to use

Post by Sisera B.E. »

Just a side-note, "green" is also used as a metaphore for new things outside micronations so it might be more suitable than you think.

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