Posted 04 August 2009 - 04:26 PM
Fellow Senators,
I have the honour of bringing you the following motion for resolution and decision:
BE IT RESOLVED AND DECIDED BY THE SENATE OF THE LAKES THAT:
1. Hurmu is a free, sovereign and independent State.
2. Hurmu owes allegiance to neither Emperor nor State of Stormark, but to Hurmu's people alone.
3. The third paragraph of the Fundamental Law will from now on read “The sovereignty of Hurmu is vested in its people.”.
Done at Huyenkula this [Date]
Daniel
Posted 04 August 2009 - 07:36 PM
What are the benefits of this for Hurmu?
Aoife
Posted 05 August 2009 - 03:48 AM
We live in truly historic times - in that respect, they may very well be giving itself a fatal overdose. When the “celebrations” have died down, it will be easier to see what will happen with a cool eye.
Thorald
Posted 05 August 2009 - 03:12 PM
Aldin and I yearn to search out our own path, unconstrained by the laws of another nation. We cannot know for certain whether this venture will prove successful, but one cannot win a game if the game is not played. Hurmu, once strong in these lands, seeks to regain her former status in the international scene.
Ionel
Posted 05 August 2009 - 07:06 PM
QUOTE
Aldin and I yearn to search out our own path
Problem is that it takes much more than the 2 of you. Before you take this to a vote in the Senate, let's organize a referendum. See if there is solid rock (enough volunteers) to build the nation on.
I'm very interested in a nation that lives by the Brida but I want to know that there are more who want to fight for it.
Polten
Posted 05 August 2009 - 07:52 PM
QUOTE (Polten @ Aug 3 2009, 05:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Problem is that it takes much more than the 2 of you.
With all due respect, friend, I've seen respectable and successful micronations subsist with merely 2 members. Hurmu was founded on 2 members.
Ionel
Posted 05 August 2009 - 08:22 PM
With independence it will be easier for “outsiders” to distinguish Hurmu from Stormark. With an active Hurmu government, we can represent ourselves abroad, thereby showing the nations of the world that we do exist, that we are – despite what many people still today believe – a free, living and vibrant society. Today, unfortunately, people see Hurmu dead, or at best a Stormarkanized colony. But we are not. We are distinct from the rest of Stormark.
I hold neither evil nor grudge against the Stormarker state. It has been helpful in securing us peace, order and good government, and it is upon those foundations we stand on today, when we march for the right of the Hurmu people to self-determination in all areas of public life. For that I am sure we are all ever thank- and greatful.
But there comes a time in the course of all nations, great and small, where they, following the most basic instinct of ruling themselves according to their own beliefs, practices and culture, they must separate themselves from their mothers and fathers, or in Hurmu's case, a step-parent.
For Hurmu and Stormark, although having lived in relative harmony, are much different from each other. The very ideals of the Brida and of the royalism of Stormark cannot go hand in hand. In Hurmu, the Emperor is but an equal of me, though as Emperor he is my liege and master. These things are difficult to understand for me, and I believe separation would be best both for Hurmu and Stormark.
Why for us? Well, the culture of the Empire is vast and great, and I am afraid that we will in some way, if we do not guard ourselves, be Stormarkanized in a way not benefiting our nation. That is what happened to Celtica and Treisenberg and Nidaros – they do not exist any more. The King of Treisenberg left when he saw the irrevokable transformation of his country. I do not mean this in way critical of the Stormarkers, for they are our bloodbrothers, but they are so great in culture and traditions compared to our small country, that they will unconsciously and, I am afraid, inevitably influence us in a direction that could, at worst, let our people's way be but a regional flavour of Stormark's heartland's traditions.
This is hard for me to say, and I wish that no offence is taken by us, because we are all Stormarkers by either citizenship or association through the Huyenkula Convention. To cut the chains that bind us and instead begin a new era where Hurmu and Stormark would be but friends, equals, for all nations, great and small, are eachothers' equals.
I envision a Hurmu active both home and abroad. I am sure that deals would be made by Hurmu and Stormark, based on their particular friendship and history, that would keep the affinity between our peoples in a special way. I envision a Hurmu that would be strong in foreign affairs, so that the world would see the Brida. And at home, we would discuss the Brida at lengths, and we would make friends.
I believe that separation will benefit Hurmu. Separation would entitle Hurmu's distinctiveness a character of its own, a nation of its own, and this will charge more people to become interested in the Hurmu way of life, in the Brida and in the history and culture of our common nation.
Daniel
Posted 05 August 2009 - 08:29 PM
QUOTE (Polten @ Aug 6 2009, 06:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Problem is that it takes much more than the 2 of you. Before you take this to a vote in the Senate, let's organize a referendum. See if there is solid rock (enough volunteers) to build the nation on.
I'm very interested in a nation that lives by the Brida but I want to know that there are more who want to fight for it.
I don't know, Polten (by the way, it's good to see you again ). I don't see why an independent Hurmu would have much less activity than a Stormarkian Hurmu. The thing is, after all, up to the people of Hurmu themselves, that is, the Senators, to take and act in Hurmu's interests, which includes being active in their own right.
The Fundamental Law itself states
[§14. Membership in the Senate is open to all individuals who endeavour to serve Hurmu and Hurmu’s people, who wish to uphold Hurmu’s founding values, who strive for peace, and who are, in the judgment of the Senate, able and willing to carry out such obligation/i]
Being a Senator is not just a privelege, but an obligation...
***
As to your question of referendum, independence by amending the Fundamental Law is achieved by a vote of 2/3+1, that is 5 votes out of 6. And if that is achieved, I believe we have the people behind this motion.
However, there is also the ethico-moral question of independence versus dependence. If a majority, but not a qualified one, seeks independence, what do we do then?
Daniel
Posted 05 August 2009 - 08:52 PM
QUOTE (Aldin Isammaður @ Aug 5 2009, 08:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
However, there is also the ethico-moral question of independence versus dependence. If a majority, but not a qualified one, seeks independence, what do we do then?
Then one could try the Althing route under Article 4j of the Law on Administrative Subdivisions.
Harald
Posted 07 August 2009 - 12:51 PM
QUOTE (sovereignvikingemperor @ Aug 5 2009, 10:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Then one could try the Althing route under Article 4j of the Law on Administrative Subdivisions.
That would also require just a simple majority in stead of a qualified majority.
Aoife
Posted 08 August 2009 - 12:31 PM
Would Hurmu also move to another forum?
Aoife
Posted 09 August 2009 - 01:58 AM
My assumption is yes, we would once again move to an independent forum, but that may not be the case. Aldin and I will converse more on that matter.
Ionel
Posted 09 August 2009 - 07:09 PM
In the more than a decade that I have been involved in this hobby I have seen this over and over again. It continues to amaze me how time after time people keep inventing the same wheel with which other have driven themselves into the abyss.
The arguments raised by the proponents of independence are pretty void. All the things that the independence-mongers cite as reasons for independence can be done and dealt while being an Autonomous Country of Stormark. Simply take a look in the Law on Administrative Subdivisions if you want to see for yourself. This whole independence mongering all reeks of calling independence for the sake of independence and a desperate, mentally exhausted va banque flight forward.
To ask the other senators to along with independence-mongers' wish to leave Stormark is like asking them to trade, while being in the middle of a stormy ocean, a lavish ocean liner for a raft built of rotten wood and rusty oil drums which is being held together by a greasy rope just to cater those who want to walk the wild side.
What would happen in the event that Hurmu is quite predictable; first euphoria and a surge in activity caused by the changes that have to implemented due to her newly independent status, quickly followed by plummeting activity caused by lack of critical mass and rising apathy levels leading to at best an undead existence but most likely a quick death.
For Hurmu the choice between and remaining in Stormark and independence is the same as choosing between light and darkness, between riches and poverty, between stability and instability, between warmth and cold, between life and death.
Those who want Hurmu to live should vote against the Motion for Independence, those who want Hurmu to die should vote in favour of it.
Shall Hurmu live?
Astrid
Posted 09 August 2009 - 07:16 PM
Lady Astrid,
You have just touched my heart.
Hurmu shall live!
Aoife
Posted 09 August 2009 - 08:25 PM
You underestimate my determination, Lady Astrid, let alone that of Senator Isammaður.
Ionel
Posted 09 August 2009 - 08:56 PM
While this really shouldn't be an issue for Ms de Valois, she did once apply for membership in the Senate...
There are some poiints that she brings up... But I ask myself, and I ask you all, why would Hurmu die without Stormark?
Is it that certain senators then wouldn't bother turning up to meetings because Hurmu might be on a different forum?
Daniel
Posted 10 August 2009 - 09:32 AM
* Princess Unna sits at the public gallery and eats pop corn. *
QUOTE (Aldin Isammaður @ Aug 9 2009, 10:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There are some poiints that she brings up... But I ask myself, and I ask you all, why would Hurmu die without Stormark?
She thinks: "For the very same reason you think that Hurmu will thrive without Stormark. There is a word for that and it is called perception."
Unna
Posted 10 August 2009 - 10:13 AM
QUOTE (Aldin Isammaður @ Aug 9 2009, 10:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
While this really shouldn't be an issue for Ms de Valois
So much for Hurmu's openness.......
QUOTE (Aldin Isammaður @ Aug 9 2009, 10:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There are some poiints that she brings up... But I ask myself, and I ask you all, why would Hurmu die without Stormark?
Please re-read the comments made by others than you and Talsin in this thread and the other Hurmu Independence thread.
Aoife
Posted 10 August 2009 - 08:40 PM
My apologies, my friends, if I at all seemed annoyed or irritated with you... That was not my intention. I hate to see this issue divide our population that has been unified on so many other subjects and areas. I apologize for causing division.
That said, I believe we should try and list the pros and cons of both membership in Stormark and membership in the free community of sovereign nations, so that we can have a healthy and a hopefully objective debate on Hurmu's future. Apart from the independence and sovereignty discussion, what do we want for Hurmu? Whereto shall Hurmu be heading?
Daniel