Adoption of a Constitution

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Elijah Ayreon
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Re: Adoption of a Constitution

Post by Elijah Ayreon »

I have not suggested any of those accusations... I merely said that I don't wish for a forcible population transfer. And now you threaten with secession...?

Forgive me for being confused. I thought I had been frank and honest with you throughout this process.
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Re: Adoption of a Constitution

Post by Orion »

Elijah Ayreon wrote:We will not entertain any population transfers. Absolutely not.

Some Amokolians has been worried about the Elwization of the country. They note that in parts of Amokolia, Elw speakers form a majority of the population. The border arrangement would allow Amokolia to enact legislation to make Amokolian official language with Elw on an inferior legal base. The compromise would be that most municipalities with Elw as a majority language (where contiguous to other similar municipalities) would have their legal status changed: from that being part of an Elwynnese union territory to being part of an Elwynnese county.

That is all.
The above suggests a complete unwillingness to compromise, especially to the detriment of Amokolia. Not only are you taking Amokolia's land, encroaching on its sovereignty, but you now state that you are unwilling to make any accommodations to ease the transition or meet the needs of the Amokolian population. There is a strong sense of Elw bias here, in that they are being favored at the cost of the Amokolians.

Your further suggest by the latter part of your statement that we are unable to properly govern the Elw under our care - I find this a very low and distasteful statement. And your level of honesty is limited. It was after I had already chosen to pursue an active role in Amokolia that I was notified - not asked - that you would be seeking to reduce our territory. I expected a slight reduction, but this has become a downright partition, as you seek to eliminate 50% of our mainland holdings and dissect it into various fragments! I find nothing honest in that.

Emir of Raspur

Re: Adoption of a Constitution

Post by Emir of Raspur »

Proposals concerning Amokolia were well advanced before you came onto the scene - the negotiations that have subsequently occurred have amounted to a rowing back from the previous position since a more viable Amokolia can now be maintained. However the position of the population in the eastern provinces yearning for unification into Great Elwdom is legitimate and cannot be wholly denied.

I would suggest that at this stage the simplest solution is to accept the Mishalan Corridor and drop the population transfer since this will permit the establishment of Lun Ezkaron for the greater number of Elws previously affected and the normalisation of the situation.

Elijah Ayreon
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Re: Adoption of a Constitution

Post by Elijah Ayreon »

Premier,

I don't understand where I have been dishonest.

I completely disagree with my Elw bias you accuse me of. It is to protect the viability of an Amokolian-majority part of the Union that this agreement was sought.

In my communications with you, I felt that you understood my government's stance. You did not protest at it. We discussed the options and one proposal was made before the Union and Amokolian legislatures, at which time the Mishalan situation arose. We accommodates those concerns too, and now you accuse the Union of dishonesty? I am sorry, Premier, I must be blind, but I cannot see where I failed in these discussions.
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Tarjei Einhornsson
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Re: Adoption of a Constitution

Post by Tarjei Einhornsson »

If Amokolians wish to move following the restructuring, of their own volition and without prompting (including the passive-aggressive suggestion that they have a new homeland based out of the concept of the new region conforming to any racial purity doctrine), then that is their own business. However, persuasion, suggestion or forcible actions taken towards the relocation of even a single person does violate our bill of rights - particularly the one regarding freedom of movement and residence within Elwynn by all nationals. This means UT citizens as well - like it or not, even UT citizens are Elwynnese nationals and all UTs are BOUND to uphold the Elwynnese constitution, irregardless of any local charter document.

Now, obviously, there is really nothing stopping anyone from moving to different parts of Amokolia because being anywhere except Amokolia might be revolting to them. However, it must be done in accordance with our freedom of movement and residence laws. Reorganization or not, that is the law and has been since Elwynn's inception as a free nation. And I do half-expect many Amokolians to migrate based on the principle that they wish to live IN Amokolia and not anywhere else - out of their own choices and beliefs. But they have to do it without any interference by means of any kind of propaganda. Should the UT government of Amokolia actively speak in favor to it's citizens in regards to ethnic migration, I foresee severely strained internal relationships.

In a way I can sort of understand your point of view, as Normark has had it's share of social engineering. Although the similarities end in so far that the cities we have population move to were actually once our cities. I.e. the people moving to the newly regained cities actually used to live in that exact city, childhood homes are rediscovered and old university-days apartments are for rent again. Sponsoring population migrations based upon ethnic boundaries is a 1990's Yugoslavia in the making.

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Re: Adoption of a Constitution

Post by Orion »

OOC:
Just so you don't get the wrong idea, I'm playing up the part of staunch Amokolian hard-liner. I figure this is close to how Jess would react in this situation, and he is a reflection upon Amokolian mindset. Not to mention it makes things more interesting in creating a polarization that then needs to be overcome. I have no intention of actually seceding.

IC:
Ardashir Shahanshah wrote:Proposals concerning Amokolia were well advanced before you came onto the scene - the negotiations that have subsequently occurred have amounted to a rowing back from the previous position since a more viable Amokolia can now be maintained. However the position of the population in the eastern provinces yearning for unification into Great Elwdom is legitimate and cannot be wholly denied.
Unfortunately these discussions seem to have been held in private circles that did not include Amokolian representatives. It is not our objective here to undercut the Elw population or prevent them from, as you say, uniting in Greater Elwdom. However, we must also ensure that the needs of the Amokolian population are met, and it is my duty to make sure that goal is attained, and that this process is as transparent as possible.
Ardashir Shahanshah wrote:I would suggest that at this stage the simplest solution is to accept the Mishalan Corridor and drop the population transfer since this will permit the establishment of Lun Ezkaron for the greater number of Elws previously affected and the normalisation of the situation.
I am perfectly fine with this solution.
Elijah Ayreon wrote:I completely disagree with my Elw bias you accuse me of. It is to protect the viability of an Amokolian-majority part of the Union that this agreement was sought.
Once again, I am not privy to the inner circles of the Union government. I represent Amokolia, and Amokolia only. My duty is to ensure that any deal reached by these negotiations is of value to Amokolia, or at least a fair trade. We are losing land, but we are not gaining anything by it.
Elijah Ayreon wrote:In my communications with you, I felt that you understood my government's stance. You did not protest at it. We discussed the options and one proposal was made before the Union and Amokolian legislatures, at which time the Mishalan situation arose. We accommodates those concerns too, and now you accuse the Union of dishonesty? I am sorry, Premier, I must be blind, but I cannot see where I failed in these discussions.
Again you state that you are making accommodations for us. Is this not a two-way street? Amokolia is sacrificing half of its land by this arrangement, without any form of compensation. Who is accommodating whom here? This is not so much a question of dishonesty regarding the origins of these negotiations or the fact that the question of losing land was being broached - it is a matter of dishonesty in that we are being undercut in the value of that which is being given up by Amokolia. We are giving up our land voluntarily, yet what is being given to us in return? When we ask for further accommodations to meet the needs of our people, these requests are met with hostility. I am asking for honesty in seeking a compromise that meets the needs of Elw and Amokolians, gives the Elw their land and provides Amokolia with a fair compensation for its loss - not necessarily money - which could take the form of accommodating our requests even if they are not what you want, and accepting that trade-off because of what you will be gaining in the long run.

Tarjei Einhornsson
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Re: Adoption of a Constitution

Post by Tarjei Einhornsson »

OOC:
Just so you don't get the wrong idea, I'm playing up the part of staunch Amokolian hard-liner. I figure this is close to how Jess would react in this situation, and he is a reflection upon Amokolian mindset. Not to mention it makes things more interesting in creating a polarization that then needs to be overcome. I have no intention of actually seceding.
I know, I was just hoping maybe you'd play the part so that we *can* have a 1990's Yugoslavia situation ;). Would be fun, sans actual separation into other nations.

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Lord Erion
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Re: Adoption of a Constitution

Post by Lord Erion »

From what I recall of the initial discussions on this idea from last year, a "land grab" of Amokolia's "surplus" land was the primary reasoning behind it. Of course, at the time Amokolia was effectively dead and unwanted, and Jess had to leave for various reasons anyway.

Obviously the current situation is considerably different, but it clearly has raised a constitutional conflict between a territory's right to autonomy, and the Senate's right to define the borders of the territories. Taken to an extreme example, this could result in a territory remaining as a legal entity, but without any actual territory. I would suggest that the Senate's rights of definition of territorial borders should be limited somewhat.

However, while Jess, upon his departure, was amenable to reducing Amokolia's territory in favour of Elwynn Proper, I have always personally advocated that the best way to do so is via a leasing arrangement, which would allow Amokolia to retain a say over its traditional lands, whatever else happened.

To conclude, I recommend that this government should a) decide if it wishes to lease any of its lands to Elwynn Proper, b) negotiate a mutually acceptable agreement to do so if it does, c) approve a suitable new constitution, d) repatriate the powers granted to the Union Senate, e) and lobby for appropriate limitations on the Senate's powers to define territorial borders.
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Orion
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Re: Adoption of a Constitution

Post by Orion »

Lord Erion wrote:Obviously the current situation is considerably different, but it clearly has raised a constitutional conflict between a territory's right to autonomy, and the Senate's right to define the borders of the territories. Taken to an extreme example, this could result in a territory remaining as a legal entity, but without any actual territory. I would suggest that the Senate's rights of definition of territorial borders should be limited somewhat.
Speaking entirely OOC, and having walked into this in the midsts of things, I must say that this is what struck me first as a glaring oversight. However, since I'm not yet confirmed as a Senator, I haven't posted any suggestions to the Senate.
Lord Erion wrote:However, while Jess, upon his departure, was amenable to reducing Amokolia's territory in favour of Elwynn Proper, I have always personally advocated that the best way to do so is via a leasing arrangement, which would allow Amokolia to retain a say over its traditional lands, whatever else happened.

To conclude, I recommend that this government should a) decide if it wishes to lease any of its lands to Elwynn Proper, b) negotiate a mutually acceptable agreement to do so if it does, c) approve a suitable new constitution, d) repatriate the powers granted to the Union Senate, e) and lobby for appropriate limitations on the Senate's powers to define territorial borders.
a + b) I am fine with this if this is something Elwynn wishes to do, although in all honesty I would rather stick with the layout from my last proposal, as it fits with my long-term plans for "Greater Mishalan".

c) I would like to conclude these negotiations and the territorial transfers before a new constitution is constructed. However, I have been working on a framework.

d) This I am unclear how to accomplish. I can either decree it as Premier, or need a repeal to be approved by the Senate - but I'm not clear which is the legal method.

e) That is a matter to be handled in the Senate, and something to be taken up when I become a Senator. Nonetheless, it is a matter of importance and worth discussing.

Elijah Ayreon
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Re: Adoption of a Constitution

Post by Elijah Ayreon »

OOC:

I am happy with the last proposal from you.

How do you want it implemented?

ALTERNATIVE 1: UGLY
This latest flirt with the separatists (there is a paramilitary group in Amokolia, the Amokolian Defence League, which would hint to a larger separatist wing) could in a way spiral down to some rioting. The Union Defence Forces could be used to calm down everything and get the deal through. It could get ugly... mutual paranoia isn't good. And in the end, that could give Remnant Amokolia a more independent-minded government.

ALTERNATIVE 2: FRIENDLY
Demonstrations across Amokolia by both pro-Elw and pro-Amok groups make government difficult. But through negotiations and polling in local assemblies, the Greater Mishalan plan is agreed. No one is happy but that is the best compromise, yeah?

ALTERNATIVE 3: something else?


What's interesting now is that we can make a good storyline out of this, something that could influence our discourse for some time to come.
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Re: Adoption of a Constitution

Post by Orion »

OOC:

ALTERNATIVE 1.1: Cold War
The result of the partitioning forces the ADL into a hardline stance and they begin to take isolationist measures in Amokolia-Automatica, the Amokolian heartland. Similarly, the partition also leaves the Mishalanski feeling abandoned by their own government, and thus they form "Greater Mishalan" to protect their own interests. Leng, already distanced culturally and geographically, is also fearful given these events and moves to establish its own safety net. Amokolia Proper will take a more right-wing hawk attitude, whereas Mishalan will pursue a left-wing communist agenda. Leng is a wild card, but unless Giles wants to take over, it will continue its obscure cultism. The end result is that the three territories become more or less on equal footing, and this in turn forces the drafting of a new comprehensive constitution.

Elijah Ayreon
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Re: Adoption of a Constitution

Post by Elijah Ayreon »

OOC:

Sounds really interesting. What do you mean by "Amokolia Proper" though? The three new provinces as one?

I would assume that once the administration of Mishalan, Vattnaland and Oleslaad has merged, and new elections elect the socialists to the provincial assembly, the more liberal-minded Elw population in the east of the new province would try and make reality of their aspirations of being an Elwynnese county instead. Perhaps the socialist rhetoric that focuses on "Amokolian workers" would scare the Elw-speaking Amokolian population. Then tensions could begin.

Automatica is more or less the cultural heartland of Amokolia. If Amokolia is USA, Automatica is like New England, I find. Educated, sees itself as the elite but yet very liberal (in policies, conservative in attitudes to constitution and governance) compared to the rest of the country. So when nationalist rhetoric is received there, the Automaticans ignore the socialism and keep some national romance.

I would imagine Mishalaners going on an expedition to Leng. Citing the Acts on Leng, it is "integrated part" of Amokolia and the Elw(ynnese) occupiers (generally the military) should leave.

And then some violence errupts, probably in east Greater Mishalan. The UDF is sent in and after a while, a call for "halt of violence" (basically a cease-fire) is heard, a round-table discussion on the future of Amokolia.

Or something? :D
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Re: Adoption of a Constitution

Post by Orion »

Elijah Ayreon wrote:OOC:

Sounds really interesting. What do you mean by "Amokolia Proper" though? The three new provinces as one?
See here:
Image
Elijah Ayreon wrote:I would assume that once the administration of Mishalan, Vattnaland and Oleslaad has merged, and new elections elect the socialists to the provincial assembly, the more liberal-minded Elw population in the east of the new province would try and make reality of their aspirations of being an Elwynnese county instead. Perhaps the socialist rhetoric that focuses on "Amokolian workers" would scare the Elw-speaking Amokolian population. Then tensions could begin.
Stalinist pogroms would work too. :twisted: Actually I was thinking more along the lines of the communist approach to ethnic integration. But that's jumping way ahead of things, and this is just speculation as to how it will actually roll out.
Elijah Ayreon wrote:Automatica is more or less the cultural heartland of Amokolia. If Amokolia is USA, Automatica is like New England, I find. Educated, sees itself as the elite but yet very liberal (in policies, conservative in attitudes to constitution and governance) compared to the rest of the country. So when nationalist rhetoric is received there, the Automaticans ignore the socialism and keep some national romance.
My thoughts exactly. Although my vision has them being a bit more conservative than New England.
Elijah Ayreon wrote:I would imagine Mishalaners going on an expedition to Leng. Citing the Acts on Leng, it is "integrated part" of Amokolia and the Elw(ynnese) occupiers (generally the military) should leave.
I think the Mishalanski are going to be too busy at home to worry about Leng. ;)
Elijah Ayreon wrote:And then some violence errupts, probably in east Greater Mishalan. The UDF is sent in and after a while, a call for "halt of violence" (basically a cease-fire) is heard, a round-table discussion on the future of Amokolia.

Or something? :D
That's one possibility!

Emir of Raspur

Re: Adoption of a Constitution

Post by Emir of Raspur »

I would imagine Mishalaners going on an expedition to Leng. Citing the Acts on Leng, it is "integrated part" of Amokolia and the Elw(ynnese) occupiers (generally the military) should leave.
If they want to be left alone and naked on the ice, waiting for the spiders to find them and hoping that they freeze to death first, they are more than welcome to try.

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