Map Reform

Legislation, debate, and in-character politics
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Aryeztur
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Map Reform

Post by Aryeztur »

The Aryashti propose to the Senate that the manner in which the Archipelago map is run be reformed.

First of all, the Aryashti are thankful for Scott for maintaining and developing the map and getting us this far. It was necessary to rule with an iron hand in the beginning in order to avoid the sort of squabbling and lack of vision/purpose many new projects go through. That being said, this project has taken on a life of its own and can probably develop naturally/organically from now on.

Reasons for the reform:

-everyone has particularities in the geographies of their statelets. these are often underdeveloped or neglected in such a big map as one person can only do so much

-time. if the map were to be run by more people then they could make changes as and when needed

-we bought into Archipelago because we wanted to escape the process of gaining land or modifying it associated with the MCS and Micras. however, similar issues seem to be cropping up

-arbitrary manner in which a single person can decide whether or not to grant or modify land claims

-unnaturalness of the manner in which land is given, contrary to social/historical/geographical principles

-not needed- we're a fairly decent lot and we can self regulate. we're not going to brutalize each other.

Proposals:

-A fairly large committee handling the map

-No central authority on the map, laissez faire but acquisitions limited by Senate, in essence anarchy, but this is sort of like reality. throughout most of history, countries expanded or contracted and mapped their cities as they wished, constrained only be their means, abilities, and desires. let the law of nature run its course with the only restriction being you can't seize anyone else's statelet or land without their consent.

-I don't know if this is possible, but is it possible to create a large interactive map that can be collectively edited by any individual as needed, sort of like share point for maps?
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Nathan
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Re: Map Reform

Post by Nathan »

Lady Rowena stood from her seat.

"The Senator from Aryasht raises a few valid points. However, the people of Merveilles must disagree and stand by the current cartographic policies of the Office of the Autokrator. Every decision made by that office regarding the mapping of this world has been given with the caveat that the Senate may override it. We the Senate are essentially the oversight committee for the map. Any particularly unfair decisions can, and should, be overturned by us. If it would assuage the concerns of the Aryashti, perhaps the Senate can draft a guideline for what is and what is not appropriate for how statelets claim land. However, I would prefer that things be addressed on a case by case basis, as none of us can possibly know what sort of strange and wondrous cultures remain to be discovered by the Senate.

We have a saying in Merveilles, 'four is fine, five is sore.' When too many people get too involved in a project, the sheer weight of people involved destroys the project. What we have now is a dedicated person, updating the map every week, and sometimes more, very responsive to our concerns and very flexible in fulfilling our demands. We've come across references in some of our more remote and ancient libraries that the cartography service for the ancient land of Micras was not even so regular.

Allowing each statelet to pursue it's own version of manifest destiny will quickly create an unbalanced and volatile world. A world unable to support any new cultures we may discover due to overwhelming pressure from super-statelets devouring land and resources.

I thank the Senators for their time. May Sasei bless you all."
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Demon of Fides
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Re: Map Reform

Post by Demon of Fides »

A Silver of the Colony Contingent rose,

"It is said that when all men are just, there will be no need for justice. The position of Autokrator is honoured in Colony and respected by Plato, let those who can control the world do so and let the rest of us get on with our work."
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Harvey
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Re: Map Reform

Post by Harvey »

The Favored have no official representative, but a note is delivered to the council that reads as follows:

"No"

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Aryeztur
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Re: Map Reform

Post by Aryeztur »

Allowing each statelet to pursue it's own version of manifest destiny will quickly create an unbalanced and volatile world.
This is not contrary to our collective wellbeing. After all, reality is quite often unbalanced and volatile, as we live on the earthly plane and not the heavenly one. This creates a healthy valve for adventure and fun.

It also allows the great nations to continue on the path of their development as they will and for the inactive nations to be recycled. As we stated before, no nation shall exceed its limits- the Senate can vote not to recognize wanton expansion and no nation shall be destroyed without its consent.

Another point- much is spoken of new nations developing or being discovered. We too hope such things happen. But we doubt it is likely that any more than one score such nations exist. Already we have surveyed our continent and found not much. We think it is unlikely that more than a score such nations will be found and develop so we do not think it overly important to worry about keeping 80 % of the land blank.
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Scott Alexander
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Re: Map Reform

Post by Scott Alexander »

Galinomai believes that the Office of the Autokrator exists to facilitate things that are simple, uncontroversial, and do not need to be bogged down in committee. It also exists to provide objective benefits to certain statelets outside of their diplomatic clout, through the EC system.

However, all controversial or unusual claims should be handled by the Senate. The Autokrator should explain exactly which claims he personally is unwilling to rubber-stamp, and this explanation should be treated not as a rejection, but as an acknowledgment that the full consensus of the Pelagian Senate is necessary for something of its level of importance.

I agree with the delegate from Aryasht that it might be interesting to provide an alternate method of claims to acknowledge that some nations may be naturally expansionist. Galinomai would not object to a system in which countries could unilaterally claim land, and in which this claim could be then challenged in the Senate by anyone who wished to do so, possibly leading to the claimant backing down or to the Senate launching military action to contest the claim - although the Senate would have to be very careful when designing this system to make sure huge claims do not go through simply because everyone was too lazy to object.

However, I do believe that excessive land claims are a major worry. The Drachumvelin called the old world sterile, because all of its fertile land was taken and settled, leaving little room for new cultures. They forged the new order to provide a cradle for new and exciting civilizations. But this cradle is already threatened. Except in the very farthest north, all of our islands are already claimed by one power or another; this is a dangerous state of affairs, as islands were often the centers of new countries back in the immediate post-apocalyptic age. If other likely land, such as peninsulas and riverbeds, meet with the same fate, then we may be locked into an unhappy senility just as the old world was. Other than by carefully restricting expansion, I do not know how to fight this.

There have also been rumors heard by our priests that the ascended spirit of Omi Oitherion still watches over us, and that he is considering doing something drastic about the islands - possibly pulverizing Echaras to create a huge new archipelago out of its mountains. I think we should all pray to our respective deities that he desists from this plan.

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Harvey
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Re: Map Reform

Post by Harvey »

We just need to keep on top of things. For example, I think we can safely delete Malitiiki by now - it has 0 posts and its founder has shown no interest in Archipelago. Other statelets seem stillborn as well. Am I saying we should become an active-only club where you need to keep posting or your state dies? No. Am I saying we should admit the realities of abandoned statelets and offer up that potentially desirable land for newcomers? Yes. I'd say a statelet having 0 posts for 2 weeks or no new significant posts for a month and a half or so (this is a grey area, but someone from another statelet posting in an abandoned one shouldn't count, nor should a "I'm still alive but am not doing anything actually" type post) and the statelet is archived and its land claim dissolved. Could be reclaimed if the owner comes back, but if their land is taken by then, they'll need a new claim.

And, again, I feel that there is an overwhelming "live and let live" sense in this sim that is solidly against me on things like this. I worry we'll live ourselves to death. I'm all for people having a good time and being able to explore their own creative vision, but we have to keep the sim balanced and coherent. Giving everyone a big country with land that stays claimed long after the owner moves on wouldn't help keep it attractive for newcomers.

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Nathan
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Re: Map Reform

Post by Nathan »

I think you're right. The problem with Micras wasn't that the most interesting land was claimed... it was that the most interesting land was claimed and then not used. Although when anyone tries to enforce the realities of shrinking land claims we get the Atkins Debacle. If a statelet isn't posting, Aziruta come to mind as well, the Senate should revoke their land claim. Again, I'd be hesitant to want some guidelines beyond "no posts in X weeks" and we should let the Senate decide each stalled statelet's future on a case by case basis.
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Adelene
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Re: Map Reform

Post by Adelene »

I like the idea of using abandoned statelets as NPCs, as has been suggested before, especially in cases where some amount of work was done on one.

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Scott Alexander
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Re: Map Reform

Post by Scott Alexander »

For example, I think we can safely delete Malitiiki by now - it has 0 posts and its founder has shown no interest in Archipelago. Other statelets seem stillborn as well.
Last map update I accidentally deleted one of Malliki's islands, and he noticed and said he was planning some stuff for Malitiiki that required that island. And I talked to the Senator from Aziruta a little while ago and she's visiting family for a while and can't get online much, but hopes to work on it after she gets back.

In general, I am really really reluctant to pester people about inactivity. There have been entire months when I didn't do any work on Hyperborea, but I always eventually came back to it. Likewise, you ignored Nelaga for a while around the beginning, but later came back. I think these sorts of things ebb and flow.

My personal rule is that if a statelet goes maybe a month or two with zero activity, I'll contact the Senator and ask if ey intends to come back to it later. If I can't reach the Senator or ey says ey's given up, I'll archive the forum and turn the land into an NPC. If ey says that there's even a little chance of returning and it's not an obvious lie, I'll let it pass. The Senate is welcome to disband statelets itself, of course.

This is one reason I'm being so stingy about starting land and expansion credits - so that we never need to delete potentially revivable statelets just to have enough land. Unfortunately, people were way more into islands than I expected and so we're having a crisis already. I would rather solve the problem by adding more islands than by disbanding more statelets, but I have to figure out the least disruptive way to do it.

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Harvey
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Re: Map Reform

Post by Harvey »

Scott Alexander wrote:Last map update I accidentally deleted one of Malliki's islands, and he noticed and said he was planning some stuff for Malitiiki that required that island.
Given the person in question, have you considered the fact that you may be being trolled?
Scott Alexander wrote:Unfortunately, people were way more into islands than I expected and so we're having a crisis already.
I refuse to believe this. How long were you the head of the MCS again? Islands and good coastal land gets eaten up faster than hot wings on game night. Everyone wants an island. I took an island. YOU took an island, then felt guilty about it and moved off.

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Aryeztur
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Re: Map Reform

Post by Aryeztur »

I'm with Scott on the inactivity rule. However, when they to become inactive, I'd rather have them dissolved or annexed rather than turned into NPCs. Who will control the NPCs when everyone is doing their own thing? In any case, some of us have already created unofficial NPCs as part of our stories.

I'm all for the Senate having powers, but we have to be careful about how many powers it can have. I don't think it should have the right to disband statelets. That power can be abused.

I don't see the islands thing as being an issue. Please do not have a continent be destroyed. There can be infinite space between eastern Aryasht and western Mervilles in that ocean. You can put a million islands or continents in there. But that being said- the problem is people want islands and coasts. Anyone who joins henceforth will be forced to make do without those things, which is good for our general development and diversity.
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Scott Alexander
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Re: Map Reform

Post by Scott Alexander »

Given the person in question, have you considered the fact that you may be being trolled?
I've considered it, but I'm trying to defuse the bad feelings between Malliki and myself, and asking him if he's trolling seems unlikely to do that. I'd rather just wait another month or so and see what happens. The fact that he was even looking at Malitiiki on the map proves that he's paying attention.
I refuse to believe this. How long were you the head of the MCS again? Islands and good coastal land gets eaten up faster than hot wings on game night. Everyone wants an island. I took an island. YOU took an island, then felt guilty about it and moved off.
I knew they'd be popular, which is why I made that whole big Eorlas island region, but I didn't realize that 12 of the first 20 statelets would be islands.

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Kallinn Ynnetrrr
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Re: Map Reform

Post by Kallinn Ynnetrrr »

Consider the real world up until about 300 years ago. Probably a significant majority of the earth's population lived on the coast. It's natural to want access to the bounties of the sea.
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Aryeztur
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Re: Map Reform

Post by Aryeztur »

Even today, the majority of the world's population lives fairly close to the coast.
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Kallinn Ynnetrrr
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Re: Map Reform

Post by Kallinn Ynnetrrr »

Indeed, but I just figured less so nowadays because of inland population centers like Mexico City, Chicago, the Rhineland, Moscow, etc.
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Andreas the Wise
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Re: Map Reform

Post by Andreas the Wise »

OOC I don't mind more islands being added (IC you just say they were discovered).
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Re: Map Reform

Post by Demon of Fides »

Alternately, we could nuke the living hell out of some unclaimed mainland to turn it into islands...
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