Where to go from here

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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Jacobus Loki » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:04 pm

Thanks for the link, Scott.

This is very cool, must think...............(escaping steam)
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Nathan » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:57 pm

Ryan wrote:If we're going to open it up to Micras, then why not just open up Momiji (or make Pelagia one of the adjacent planets) for colonization and thereby link the two feasibly?


That's an exciting idea!
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Scott Alexander » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:00 pm

If we're going to open it up to Micras, then why not just open up Momiji (or make Pelagia one of the adjacent planets) for colonization and thereby link the two feasibly?


Um, cause I thought part of the point was to keep our Pelagian statelets (which wouldn't be on Momiji) and a feeling (which may be me flattering myself) that the Pelagia map and its standards are nicer and more professional than the MCS (which wouldn't be true of Momiji). Exactly how would opening up Momiji solve any of the issue we're having with Archipelago?
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Jacobus Loki » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:28 pm

that the Pelagia map and its standards are nicer and more professional than the MCS


True, and easier to read........

I haven't had time to wrap by brain around Archipelago. Can someone give me the nickle tour?
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Kaiser Reynardine II » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:38 am

I think opening up Pelagia to Micran nations would be alright considering the lack of better ideas under the stipend that claims must be kept small-ish in keeping with the general theme. Perhaps an explanation involving some multi-universe gate or something? Dunno, fuzzy on that one.
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Orion » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:24 am

Scott Alexander wrote:
If we're going to open it up to Micras, then why not just open up Momiji (or make Pelagia one of the adjacent planets) for colonization and thereby link the two feasibly?


Um, cause I thought part of the point was to keep our Pelagian statelets (which wouldn't be on Momiji) and a feeling (which may be me flattering myself) that the Pelagia map and its standards are nicer and more professional than the MCS (which wouldn't be true of Momiji). Exactly how would opening up Momiji solve any of the issue we're having with Archipelago?


So why not zip up a nicer map of Momiji with your fancy map skills?

The Pelagia map is certainly nicer, but for people like myself, it also means I can't make any edits to it. There is utility in simplicity; which is why the MCS has lasted as long as it has.

As far as solving the problems of Archipelago;

Q: You cite a lack of ability for interaction with Micran nations.
A: Opening up Momiji would allow interaction with Micran nations sans the problem of having giant superpowers versus tiny statelets.

Q: You cite the general desire of people to maintain a "colonization" or "post-apocalyptic" theme.
A: By virtue of having a "fresh start" on Momiji you achieve similar results.

Q: There remains an unlocked venue of potential in the MicroWiki sector that has a negative attitude towards Micras.
A: A fresh map with new faces could provide a new leaf for interaction with the MicroWiki people, and give them equal standing on Momiji as ourselves.

Q: There is an obvious desire to retain some link between Micras and this project.
A: Momiji would be a perfect way to achieve a standing interaction between the two worlds.


So there's four problems that have been stated here and that I have provided credible answers for.
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Carl Jackson » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:55 am

What's Momiji?
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Harvey » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:10 am

For the record, *I* like my land on Micras.
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Scott Alexander » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:40 am

We've already put hundreds of hours of effort into developing Pelagia, both the map and the statelets and everything, and grown pretty attached to it. Your proposal seems to be that we could solve some (but not all) of the same problems by completely abandoning Pelagia and switching to a completely different planet. You have yet to give (to me, anyway) the reasons why colonizing Momiji is better than colonizing Pelagia, that would make up for abandoning all of the work we've already put into the one. All of your reasons seem to be along the lines of "Well, if we put a few dozen hours of work into the Momiji map, it might look as good as the map we already have that people are already working on." So, please, tell me why it's even an option to try to get Micrans to colonize Momiji instead of Pelagia?

(the one argument of yours that I do understand, the one that it's easier to edit the Momiji map, makes sense - but when you ask me to zip up a nice map of Momiji, if it was in anything like the Pelagian you would have trouble editing that one too.)

I'm still confused where you're going with this. I'm trying to either preserve Pelagia, or else get us on Micras so we can at least interact with other people. You seem to be advocating the one course of action in which we neither get to keep our own beloved world or get the benefit of being on the well-established planet of everyone else. So what are we getting?

(I hope I don't sound like a jerk about this. I just thought I was ready to listen to anything no matter how crazy, and then your proposal totally came out of left field and I don't get it at all)
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Orion » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:43 pm

CJ Miller wrote:What's Momiji?


Micras' sister world in the Atos System. There had been a map up on the MCS site at one point, but dunno what happened to it. I'll see if I can dig out a copy from my files.


Scott Alexander wrote:We've already put hundreds of hours of effort into developing Pelagia, both the map and the statelets and everything, and grown pretty attached to it. Your proposal seems to be that we could solve some (but not all) of the same problems by completely abandoning Pelagia and switching to a completely different planet. You have yet to give (to me, anyway) the reasons why colonizing Momiji is better than colonizing Pelagia, that would make up for abandoning all of the work we've already put into the one. All of your reasons seem to be along the lines of "Well, if we put a few dozen hours of work into the Momiji map, it might look as good as the map we already have that people are already working on." So, please, tell me why it's even an option to try to get Micrans to colonize Momiji instead of Pelagia?


I simply don't see how you plan to tie Pelagia to Micras. Unless you scrap the idea that Pelagia is a post-apocalyptic Micras and make it, instead, into one of the adjacent worlds (like Indigo, for example). I'm not comparing the option of colonizing Pelagia vs colonizing Momiji. I'm comparing the option of moving archipelago to Micras vs colonizing Momiji. Hopefully that makes sense.

Scott Alexander wrote:(the one argument of yours that I do understand, the one that it's easier to edit the Momiji map, makes sense - but when you ask me to zip up a nice map of Momiji, if it was in anything like the Pelagian you would have trouble editing that one too.)


Well you could always have two versions. The easy-edit MS paint version, and the aesthetically-pleasing graphically-enhanced version. All I'm saying in that regard is that you shouldn't preclude that we can't have a better map simply because an older style already exists. Numerous maps (yours included) have already been made showing a greatly enhanced Micras.

Scott Alexander wrote:I'm still confused where you're going with this. I'm trying to either preserve Pelagia, or else get us on Micras so we can at least interact with other people. You seem to be advocating the one course of action in which we neither get to keep our own beloved world or get the benefit of being on the well-established planet of everyone else. So what are we getting?

(I hope I don't sound like a jerk about this. I just thought I was ready to listen to anything no matter how crazy, and then your proposal totally came out of left field and I don't get it at all)


If your objective is to preserve Pelagia as it is, then that is different from moving it to Micras. Unless you create a new landmass (which you've harassed me about for nearly a decade now =p ), you're still going to change it. Furthermore, you can't have the "apocalyptic" scenarios with all the other existent nations on the map. It totally defeats the purpose. Far better it would be to simply call Pelagia an adjacent planet - as I said earlier, it could be another name for Indigo or one of the other unmapped planets - and rejig the apocalyptic storylines along a line of space colonization or something; perhaps even as native populations. Perhaps it's a bit SMACish, but it would work better in creating a sound sync with Micras and the continuity of everything.

Neither of us are being jerks. I think we both want to see something fruitful come from this project. I'm just trying to give you some additional ideas to consider before making a decision.
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Scott Alexander » Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:13 pm

Oh, I see, the problem is that you just have ten thousand times more authorial integrity than I do :) If I wanted some reason to link Micras and Pelagia, I'd just say a gate appeared in the sky or something. It worked for Giess. Harvey already predicted I would do this, although at the time I told him he was wrong.

Numerous maps (yours included) have already been made showing a greatly enhanced Micras.


That was a disaster. I put an incredible amount of time into it, they refused to use it in any official capacity, I got yelled at if there were any areas that weren't exactly pixel-perfect, even the ones I changed deliberately because Micras was screwed up, it became obsolete within a week when they started changing Micras stuff and I didn't want to change a much more complicated map no one was looking at at the same rate they changed theirs, and now, three or four years later, I still get veteran micronationalists who have no idea it even existed.
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Harvey » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:15 pm

Scott Alexander wrote: Harvey already predicted I would do this, although at the time I told him he was wrong.

Did I? I don't recall. Well, it sounds like something I would say.

Scott Alexander wrote:That was a disaster. I put an incredible amount of time into it, they refused to use it in any official capacity, I got yelled at if there were any areas that weren't exactly pixel-perfect, even the ones I changed deliberately because Micras was screwed up, it became obsolete within a week when they started changing Micras stuff and I didn't want to change a much more complicated map no one was looking at at the same rate they changed theirs, and now, three or four years later, I still get veteran micronationalists who have no idea it even existed.

See, people say stuff like this now, but when I came up with quasihostile takeover plan of the MCS exactly to get rid of crap like this, I got responses that varied between "I ain't helpin' but good luck with that." to "NO! SPLITTING BABIES!" I vaguely remember you leaning more towards the former, but a whole lotta neutrals didn't exactly do the idea any good.
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Scott Alexander » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:33 pm

Harvey: That was about four years after everything I was referring to took place.
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Orion » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:20 am

Scott Alexander wrote:Oh, I see, the problem is that you just have ten thousand times more authorial integrity than I do :) If I wanted some reason to link Micras and Pelagia, I'd just say a gate appeared in the sky or something. It worked for Giess. Harvey already predicted I would do this, although at the time I told him he was wrong.


Authorial integrity? I don't seem to have any integrity anymore! I've become the cantankerous old man who people let gripe about things but don't pay any attention to.

I suppose you could gate the two worlds. But then you'd have a whole other star system to explain, which just complicates things further. Far easier it would be to just call it one of the other Atosian worlds, and it saves time having to retcon everything.
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Daniel » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:15 am

Why don't you just change the map of Momiji to Pelagia's one?
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Andreas the Wise » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:24 am

That's where I thought this discussion was going.
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Scott Alexander » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:11 pm

You know, sticking some people on Momiji and convincing them that they were still on Micras but everything had been destroyed, in order to see what they would do, would be exactly Morimoto's style.
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Harvey » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:37 pm

At this point, there's no explanation other than you doing it just to annoy me.
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Scott Alexander » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:46 pm

Ryan, I may be willing to collaborate with you on something like this (along the lines of you doing outreach and arguing with MCS / me doing map-making) if we can get some ground rules settled. Are you interested enough that it's worth discussing? What about everyone else on Archipelago?
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Re: Where to go from here

Postby Aryeztur » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:06 pm

I'll go along with whatever is decided ultimately.
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