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  • Expansion Credit Price List

    Management of the simulation and out-of-character discussion

    Re: Expansion Credit Price List

    Postby Demon of Fides » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:07 am

    Corey, would you even trade land off anyway? If you had a modest claim to begin with, it's unlikely you'd be willing to part with it. I like the EC system (even though I abuse it the most) because it actually gives development a time and resource limit, and I was never very good at setting my own limits. If we didn't have ECs, I'd have one tunnel opening in every nation by now, but as it stands I can barely afford to get to the next continent.
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    Re: Expansion Credit Price List

    Postby Harvey » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:05 pm

    Corey's point, I believe, was that certain nations got larger land claims approved on the basis that their culture justified it. And that was fine. But if all of a sudden you can sell off those claims for the single valuable commodity in this sim, then it makes everyone that made respectfully smaller claims look like a sucker.
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    Re: Expansion Credit Price List

    Postby Demon of Fides » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:21 pm

    I'd like to think that no one here claimed with the expressed purpose of having more land than anyone else and will therefore aim for that subsequently.
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    Re: Expansion Credit Price List

    Postby Kallinn Ynnetrrr » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:24 pm

    It's still unfair that some people can say, "well, I don't really need this land, let's cash it in for other perks." Then people with "extra land" get free ECs. Regardless of the circumstances of the original claims, it means one person can have the same amount of land as me, but get more perks because they got more than they needed.
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    Re: Expansion Credit Price List

    Postby Adelene » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:05 pm

    What we could do, if it's really an issue, is figure out how much each of the starting claims would have cost in ECs, and retroactively give everyone that many ECs as a starting fund and charge them for whatever land they started with. In other words, if the most expensive starting land claim would have cost 4,000 ECs to buy, and person A's original land claim would have cost 2,000 ECs to buy, person A would get the 2,000 EC difference to use as they please. People who make statelets in the future can simply be given a starting fund of ECs equal to that amount, and buy land and upgrades with it.

    This does disregard some other things that ECs are used for, like board position, but I think it's reasonable for that to be a perk of early adoption. It also gets complicated if we adjust the land cost rules in the future, so that's worth consideration.
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    Re: Expansion Credit Price List

    Postby Scott Alexander » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:08 pm

    My preferred solution is to allow people to ask to sell land for ECs, and then to discuss this with them on a case-by-case basis. If someone asks for a huge starting land claim and then immediately tries to sell it, they're likely to get a terrible price or outright refused. If someone's built up land over months and months, and wants to sell it for an in-game reason and for a specific purpose, they're likely to get a price closer to 1 EC per pixel.
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    Re: Expansion Credit Price List

    Postby Harvey » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:01 pm

    That type of solution, while ideal, keeps cementing power in the hands of, well, you. I have faith in principle that you try to be fair, but nobody is perfect, and it does make more and more of what we do around here firmly dependent on your good intentions and overall activity. I also feel the need to point out that every case-by-case basis has ended up with the public largely supporting the "meh, give him whatever he wants" option. That wasn't always what you decided, but I think it's a worrying trend.
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    Re: Expansion Credit Price List

    Postby Scott Alexander » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:07 pm

    I see your point, but I guess the question is how many complicated algorithms we want to work out, and how much work we want to put into something which may not ever happen. Adelene's solution seems interesting, but it would take a lot of work for someone, and it would algorithmize things to the point where it feels too much like one of those D&D games where you only have a certain number of skill points and you have to decide whether you'd rather have a character who is very pretty, or one who can pick locks. Or like a recwar, where you have to decide whether to buy five planes or one battleship.

    And aside from those being a lot of work and usually having some loophole people can use to min-max with, I feel like they make it really tempting for people to figure out the most profitable possible solution to the algorithm rather than to be creative and write fiction. Like in D&D, people munchkin instead of telling interesting stories, and in recwar, people try to win battles instead of telling interesting stories. I am trying to avoid over-algorithmization to prevent people from doing that here.
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    Re: Expansion Credit Price List

    Postby Andreas the Wise » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:28 pm

    I agreed with avoiding over-algorithmization to avoid munchkining. But if the algorithm is just "you have 4000 starting EC to buy your starting claim with - start all in one place and we'll count that as 4000 pixels" and then the formula for starting EC's post claim is 4000 - (pixels used in starting claim). Hard to munchkin that.
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