A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishment
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- Tokaray al-Osman
- Posts: 1119
- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:56 pm
A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishment
Please be advised that Resolutions targeting named individuals with the purpose of making them subject to extra-judicial punishments, banishments and any form of reprisal will not be accepted onto the floor of the Landsraad.
Where an individual has committed a felony it must be taken to the Judex. Where an individual's behaviour is reprehensible and it is desired not to see the like of it again then legislation must be prepared that addresses the behaviour not the individual. The individual is then liable before the Judex if they persist in behaviour that has subsequently been made unlawful.
Above all else - the Landsraad is not a dumping ground for Carl's petty resentments.
Are we clear on this?
Where an individual has committed a felony it must be taken to the Judex. Where an individual's behaviour is reprehensible and it is desired not to see the like of it again then legislation must be prepared that addresses the behaviour not the individual. The individual is then liable before the Judex if they persist in behaviour that has subsequently been made unlawful.
Above all else - the Landsraad is not a dumping ground for Carl's petty resentments.
Are we clear on this?
His Imperial Magnificence Aurangzeb II Steffki, Kaiser of the Imperial Republic of Shireroth, Thane of the Shirelands, Keeper of the Apollo Legacy, Wielder of the Sword of Vengeance, Grand Master of the Orders of the Dragon, Griffin, Phoenix, and Chimera, Sovereign of the Golden Mango Throne.
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
So the Landsraad has no fucking power.
1.Titus Morvayne, Prefect of Shirekeep, Count of the Skyla Islands
2.Eki Aholibamah Verion, Queen in the North
3. Ludovic Verion, Lord of Blackstone and Governor-General of the Iron Company
4. Jeremy Harwinsson Archer, super sleuth
2.Eki Aholibamah Verion, Queen in the North
3. Ludovic Verion, Lord of Blackstone and Governor-General of the Iron Company
4. Jeremy Harwinsson Archer, super sleuth
- Tokaray al-Osman
- Posts: 1119
- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:56 pm
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
It is a legislature - if you want it to have more power, propose legislation to that effect...
His Imperial Magnificence Aurangzeb II Steffki, Kaiser of the Imperial Republic of Shireroth, Thane of the Shirelands, Keeper of the Apollo Legacy, Wielder of the Sword of Vengeance, Grand Master of the Orders of the Dragon, Griffin, Phoenix, and Chimera, Sovereign of the Golden Mango Throne.
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
Are Bills of Attainder forbidden by law?
The Great King, King of Kings, King of the World
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
Over citizens? Of course not. The Landsraad is used force government, not judgement (that should be a motto).
OOC: Would a traitor to the States be presented before Congress? No, he would be sent to the Supreme Court.
OOC: Would a traitor to the States be presented before Congress? No, he would be sent to the Supreme Court.
Ryker00X
Ryker of the Sovereign Confederation
Head of House Redquill
Ryker of the Sovereign Confederation
Head of House Redquill
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
The US Constitution explicitly forbids Bills of Attainder. The British Parliament used such Bills though. I like to think our model is more similar to Parliament.
The Great King, King of Kings, King of the World
- Ryabin Merkayastreb
- Posts: 577
- Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:10 pm
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
I like to think our model is primarily self-referencing and dispenses with any significant procedural peg to the real-life jurisdictions which we as micronationalists come here by definition to escape.
Ryabin Merkayastreb
- Son of Krasniy, Father of Stellus
- From 5222-5461 ASC, Duke of Goldshire
- From 5323-5416 ASC, Kaiser Mo'll I
- Son of Krasniy, Father of Stellus
- From 5222-5461 ASC, Duke of Goldshire
- From 5323-5416 ASC, Kaiser Mo'll I
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
I would say Jingdao is a faithful copy of Sweden.
- Tokaray al-Osman
- Posts: 1119
- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:56 pm
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
I thought it was the other way round.
His Imperial Magnificence Aurangzeb II Steffki, Kaiser of the Imperial Republic of Shireroth, Thane of the Shirelands, Keeper of the Apollo Legacy, Wielder of the Sword of Vengeance, Grand Master of the Orders of the Dragon, Griffin, Phoenix, and Chimera, Sovereign of the Golden Mango Throne.
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
Ever since the annexation I am not sure who was first anymore.
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
Look, I wasn't saying we're a copy of anything, I know we're unique unto ourselves. I was just suggesting our system resembles a Parliamentary system more, as it is in origin an assembly of nobles. Our situation resembles the struggle of the aristocratic classes for power against a centralizing monarchy. I don't really see American political influence or norms as applicable for Shireroth's situation as a result.
Last edited by Aryeztur on Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Great King, King of Kings, King of the World
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
Actually it's getting to be that way.
Ryker00X
Ryker of the Sovereign Confederation
Head of House Redquill
Ryker of the Sovereign Confederation
Head of House Redquill
- Lyssansa Rossheim
- Posts: 691
- Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:02 pm
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
Bills of attainder aren't illegal; they're just immoral and a seriously bad idea in what is supposed to be a fun hobby. That's because acts of attainder aren't about guilt or innocence: their sole purpose is to destroy political enemies. People who aren't popular with whoever's in charge.
So just stop a moment and consider the implications...do we really want to start voting on whether or not to exclude people? Not characters, people. Real people...just because they're not popular with certain sections of the community.
If that's what Shireroth stands for, then I don't want to be part of it.
So just stop a moment and consider the implications...do we really want to start voting on whether or not to exclude people? Not characters, people. Real people...just because they're not popular with certain sections of the community.
If that's what Shireroth stands for, then I don't want to be part of it.
Lyssansa
Queen of Minarboria
Queen of Lichbrook, Duchess of Brookshire
Princess and Lichgravine of Lywind, Baroness of Solecism
Queen of Minarboria
Queen of Lichbrook, Duchess of Brookshire
Princess and Lichgravine of Lywind, Baroness of Solecism
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
The big scary Katy's gone now. It's going to be fine.
Ryker00X
Ryker of the Sovereign Confederation
Head of House Redquill
Ryker of the Sovereign Confederation
Head of House Redquill
- Lyssansa Rossheim
- Posts: 691
- Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:02 pm
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
I don't know, Ryker. I'm seeing a lot of people who want a strong Kaiser...except of course when the Kaiser does something they don't like. So yes, things might well improve...until we have the next Kaiser who doesn't listen, at which point all this soul-searching will start up again.
Lyssansa
Queen of Minarboria
Queen of Lichbrook, Duchess of Brookshire
Princess and Lichgravine of Lywind, Baroness of Solecism
Queen of Minarboria
Queen of Lichbrook, Duchess of Brookshire
Princess and Lichgravine of Lywind, Baroness of Solecism
- Vilhelm Benkern
- Posts: 3833
- Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:08 am
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
I agree that bills of attainder in earnest, against people (rather than characters) are misguided; but political trials can be fun.Lyssansa Rossheim wrote:Bills of attainder aren't illegal; they're just immoral and a seriously bad idea in what is supposed to be a fun hobby.
Vilhelm Benkern DEOMI, Member of the Order of the Dragon, Silver Swan, Red Dragon
Dirigent of Musica, Count of Mar Sara
In Aryasht Prapta Vrteti, former Prince of Aryasht; Zaila Vrteti, Norfolknath
In Elwynn Benjamin Sebasokrator Timothy Quentin Kern, Duke of Raikoth
In Khalypsil Representative of the Wisdom
Dirigent of Musica, Count of Mar Sara
In Aryasht Prapta Vrteti, former Prince of Aryasht; Zaila Vrteti, Norfolknath
In Elwynn Benjamin Sebasokrator Timothy Quentin Kern, Duke of Raikoth
In Khalypsil Representative of the Wisdom
- Lyssansa Rossheim
- Posts: 691
- Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:02 pm
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
Provided they're fun for everyone, Benkern.
Please listen to me on this, if nothing else...not everyone enjoys the experience of having a much-loved character put on trial, particularly in the absence of a solid justification. The boundary between the IC and OOC spheres is not absolute; if a person has invested a lot of time in a character or projected, destroying that will upset them.
All I'm saying is...be careful what you wish for here.
Please listen to me on this, if nothing else...not everyone enjoys the experience of having a much-loved character put on trial, particularly in the absence of a solid justification. The boundary between the IC and OOC spheres is not absolute; if a person has invested a lot of time in a character or projected, destroying that will upset them.
All I'm saying is...be careful what you wish for here.
Lyssansa
Queen of Minarboria
Queen of Lichbrook, Duchess of Brookshire
Princess and Lichgravine of Lywind, Baroness of Solecism
Queen of Minarboria
Queen of Lichbrook, Duchess of Brookshire
Princess and Lichgravine of Lywind, Baroness of Solecism
- Vilhelm Benkern
- Posts: 3833
- Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:08 am
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
Of course -- I would treat them like I argue we should treat recwars. Agreed result (ish), with consent from the person on trial. For example if Ardy remained a part of Shireroth at its highest levels, but due to certain storylines it was considered appropriate that Laqi should be hung, drawn, hung, gassed and eighthed.
Vilhelm Benkern DEOMI, Member of the Order of the Dragon, Silver Swan, Red Dragon
Dirigent of Musica, Count of Mar Sara
In Aryasht Prapta Vrteti, former Prince of Aryasht; Zaila Vrteti, Norfolknath
In Elwynn Benjamin Sebasokrator Timothy Quentin Kern, Duke of Raikoth
In Khalypsil Representative of the Wisdom
Dirigent of Musica, Count of Mar Sara
In Aryasht Prapta Vrteti, former Prince of Aryasht; Zaila Vrteti, Norfolknath
In Elwynn Benjamin Sebasokrator Timothy Quentin Kern, Duke of Raikoth
In Khalypsil Representative of the Wisdom
- Ryabin Merkayastreb
- Posts: 577
- Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:10 pm
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
The poor man's been dragged through war-torn Shirekeep once each way, run ragged on frivolous errands, thrown from a roof to his death, resurrected by not-entirely-refined Elwynnese methods of lichification, shoved into Imperial office and dismissed again. Is there no limit to the punishment that can be inflicted on this poor fellow?Vilhelm Benkern wrote:...appropriate that Laqi should be hung, drawn, hung, gassed and eighthed.
It's a question which, I must admit, I'd be curious to see answered practically
Ryabin Merkayastreb
- Son of Krasniy, Father of Stellus
- From 5222-5461 ASC, Duke of Goldshire
- From 5323-5416 ASC, Kaiser Mo'll I
- Son of Krasniy, Father of Stellus
- From 5222-5461 ASC, Duke of Goldshire
- From 5323-5416 ASC, Kaiser Mo'll I
- Tokaray al-Osman
- Posts: 1119
- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:56 pm
Re: A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishmen
A post by Kai Jackson was recently subjected to extraordinary rendition to Elwynn for offending my slightly irritable sensibilities.
Justice has been served swiftly, fairly and with lead-tipped cudgels.
Justice has been served swiftly, fairly and with lead-tipped cudgels.
His Imperial Magnificence Aurangzeb II Steffki, Kaiser of the Imperial Republic of Shireroth, Thane of the Shirelands, Keeper of the Apollo Legacy, Wielder of the Sword of Vengeance, Grand Master of the Orders of the Dragon, Griffin, Phoenix, and Chimera, Sovereign of the Golden Mango Throne.