A Polite Note on Resolutions as Extra-Judicial Punishment

[Tokaray al-Osman]

Please be advised that Resolutions targeting named individuals with the purpose of making them subject to extra-judicial punishments, banishments and any form of reprisal will not be accepted onto the floor of the Landsraad.

Where an individual has committed a felony it must be taken to the Judex. Where an individual's behaviour is reprehensible and it is desired not to see the like of it again then legislation must be prepared that addresses the behaviour not the individual. The individual is then liable before the Judex if they persist in behaviour that has subsequently been made unlawful.

Above all else - the Landsraad is not a dumping ground for Carl's petty resentments.

Are we clear on this?

[Verion]

So the Landsraad has no fucking power.

[Tokaray al-Osman]

It is a legislature - if you want it to have more power, propose legislation to that effect...

[Aryeztur]

Are Bills of Attainder forbidden by law?

[Ryker]

Over citizens? Of course not. The Landsraad is used force government, not judgement (that should be a motto).
OOC: Would a traitor to the States be presented before Congress? No, he would be sent to the Supreme Court.

[Aryeztur]

The US Constitution explicitly forbids Bills of Attainder. The British Parliament used such Bills though. I like to think our model is more similar to Parliament.

[Ryabin Merkayastreb]

I like to think our model is primarily self-referencing and dispenses with any significant procedural peg to the real-life jurisdictions which we as micronationalists come here by definition to escape.

[Raz]

I would say Jingdao is a faithful copy of Sweden.

[Tokaray al-Osman]

I thought it was the other way round.

[Raz]

Ever since the annexation I am not sure who was first anymore.

[Aryeztur]

Look, I wasn't saying we're a copy of anything, I know we're unique unto ourselves. I was just suggesting our system resembles a Parliamentary system more, as it is in origin an assembly of nobles. Our situation resembles the struggle of the aristocratic classes for power against a centralizing monarchy. I don't really see American political influence or norms as applicable for Shireroth's situation as a result.

[Ryker]

Actually it's getting to be that way.

[Lyssansa Rossheim]

Bills of attainder aren't illegal; they're just immoral and a seriously bad idea in what is supposed to be a fun hobby. That's because acts of attainder aren't about guilt or innocence: their sole purpose is to destroy political enemies. People who aren't popular with whoever's in charge.

So just stop a moment and consider the implications...do we really want to start voting on whether or not to exclude people? Not characters, people. Real people...just because they're not popular with certain sections of the community.

If that's what Shireroth stands for, then I don't want to be part of it.

[Ryker]

The big scary Katy's gone now. It's going to be fine.

[Lyssansa Rossheim]

I don't know, Ryker. I'm seeing a lot of people who want a strong Kaiser...except of course when the Kaiser does something they don't like. So yes, things might well improve...until we have the next Kaiser who doesn't listen, at which point all this soul-searching will start up again.

[Vilhelm Benkern]

Bills of attainder aren't illegal; they're just immoral and a seriously bad idea in what is supposed to be a fun hobby.

I agree that bills of attainder in earnest, against people (rather than characters) are misguided; but political trials can be fun.

[Lyssansa Rossheim]

Provided they're fun for everyone, Benkern.

Please listen to me on this, if nothing else...not everyone enjoys the experience of having a much-loved character put on trial, particularly in the absence of a solid justification. The boundary between the IC and OOC spheres is not absolute; if a person has invested a lot of time in a character or projected, destroying that will upset them.

All I'm saying is...be careful what you wish for here.

[Vilhelm Benkern]

Of course -- I would treat them like I argue we should treat recwars. Agreed result (ish), with consent from the person on trial. For example if Ardy remained a part of Shireroth at its highest levels, but due to certain storylines it was considered appropriate that Laqi should be hung, drawn, hung, gassed and eighthed.

[Ryabin Merkayastreb]

...appropriate that Laqi should be hung, drawn, hung, gassed and eighthed.

The poor man's been dragged through war-torn Shirekeep once each way, run ragged on frivolous errands, thrown from a roof to his death, resurrected by not-entirely-refined Elwynnese methods of lichification, shoved into Imperial office and dismissed again. Is there no limit to the punishment that can be inflicted on this poor fellow?

It's a question which, I must admit, I'd be curious to see answered practically

[Tokaray al-Osman]

A post by Kai Jackson was recently subjected to extraordinary rendition to Elwynn for offending my slightly irritable sensibilities.

Justice has been served swiftly, fairly and with lead-tipped cudgels.