That time Shireroth became a vulture's banquet...

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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Continuator »

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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Mahmood Sadri »

So when are we submitting this to the MCS?
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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Rheni Chakam »

First, please change Yardistan's color to #f0840c or #4379e6 or #00923d, as amenable to everyone here and the MCS.
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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Continuator »

I think we also have yet to decide how much of the rest of Shireroth is going to be a stripy-warlordy hellspace and how much of the rump state will be notionally loyal to the Kaiser.

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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Ryker »

Definitely Oleslaad. Between getting cut off from Shirekeep more or less and the Boreal Clans eyeballing it something fierce, How could it not fall to pieces?
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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Continuator »

We've had an expression of interest on Oleslaad/Amokolia. The bidder is prepared to offer us something actually useful in return for being allowed a vulture state there. So I've nudged Ric about it. If it doesn't transpire then the points you make certainly hold true. :wink:

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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Ryker »

Shimmerspring would be the perfect staging ground for an ambitious warlord what with all the tunnels and hidden troves of technology.
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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Craitman »

Been conversing with the ArdContinuator regarding a Tellian stake in this mêlée. I'm very aware I have no direct ties with Shireroth, so I don't want this to come across as being an attempt at a land grab, but I thought that with such an upheaval across the continent, the Tellians would have something to say.

Completely negotiable, but the map below combines the current Benacian borders with the former-Ashkenatzi boundaries of Hither and Thither Tellia as a basis for Tellian involvement here. Hither - essentially what constitutes the current Mandate - comes under Tellian Confederation control, with Thither being yet another disputed area; notable Tellian populace (such as the existing independent exclaves) but not core territory, and something the Confederation probably wouldn't have the power to administer (both IC- and OOC-ly) but would look at as an eventual goal of claiming no matter how unlikely.

Image

I have no problem if there are any objections to any of this; like I said, I have no real history with Shireroth other than the few agreements with Tellia, so any long-standing Shirerithians can rightly tell me to where I can sod :P
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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Shyriath »

This. I like this.
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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Ryker »

I too like this. Not least because of how silly and deflated it makes the remnants of Malarboria look.
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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Kaiser Ayreon IV »

Craitman wrote:Been conversing with the ArdContinuator regarding a Tellian stake in this mêlée. I'm very aware I have no direct ties with Shireroth, so I don't want this to come across as being an attempt at a land grab, but I thought that with such an upheaval across the continent, the Tellians would have something to say.

Completely negotiable, but the map below combines the current Benacian borders with the former-Ashkenatzi boundaries of Hither and Thither Tellia as a basis for Tellian involvement here. Hither - essentially what constitutes the current Mandate - comes under Tellian Confederation control, with Thither being yet another disputed area; notable Tellian populace (such as the existing independent exclaves) but not core territory, and something the Confederation probably wouldn't have the power to administer (both IC- and OOC-ly) but would look at as an eventual goal of claiming no matter how unlikely.

Image

I have no problem if there are any objections to any of this; like I said, I have no real history with Shireroth other than the few agreements with Tellia, so any long-standing Shirerithians can rightly tell me to where I can sod :P
Tellia is part of the Shirerithian cultural sphere, so it makes sense Crait can do stuff with Tellia on our turf.

Elwynn has also claimed Automatica and New London, so the map probably should reflect that. And how do we show on the map the difference between "controlled and claimed by A and also claimed by B" and "controlled and claimed by B and also claimed by A"?


Proposed rules:

All these states will be bound by a nominal allegiance to the Kaiser/Kaiseress as supreme head in some matter. The Kaiser is untouchable.

Each state respects the Nortonized history timeline of Shireroth.

None of them can join any other non-Shirerithian state.

No territory can be ceded away to a non-Shirerithian state or to the Green.

If after prolonged inactivity (2 IRL months), the Landsraad can by a vote take back the state territory. Failing to uphold these rules can cause the Landsraad to take back territory.

Each state will have one Landsraad rep. Furthermore, each Shirerithian RL citizen will have a seat on the Landsraad. Further powers of the Landsraad can be decided. So the Landsraad will basically be in some respects an OOC guardian council of Shirerithian elders, and for other respects an IC council of fractures state leaders and high nobles.
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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Mahmood Sadri »

I would first of all call the Kaiser a nominal head, with no powers at all. It also doesn't make sense to give the Landsraad a role here. It's a Shirerithian institution. I propose that it has no powers at all in relation to the vulture states, even tho it would like to. No seats should be given to the states, but of course we can retain a character in the rump so to speak. Territory should be retroceded as a matter of fact. No vote needed. That also makes sense in a narrative sense, with Shireroth stepping in when a vulture state experiences a power vacuum.

Please dare to let go of the control, and not turn this into Imperial States 2.0.
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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Continuator »

Ayreon IV wrote:...controlled and claimed by B and also claimed by A?
The chequered "occupied" pattern would suffice. Although my only question there is how the casual observer can be expected to identify which colour represents the occupier?

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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Continuator »

Ayreon IV wrote:All these states will be bound by a nominal allegiance to the Kaiser/Kaiseress as supreme head in some matter.
The extent to which a vulture state owes "nominal allegiance" to a disgraced institution ought to be determined by the IC characteristics of the particular states. So for instance don't expect an oath of fealty from the (ex?-)communists in Amarr. Other states may decide that it is more prudent to maintain relations bilaterally with each other, multilaterally with the Raspur Pact, and be as likely to look to Natopia as a guarantor as to Shirekeep. Even those who chose to "remain loyal" are likely to do so in the most perfunctory late-HRE manner.
Ayreon IV wrote:The Kaiser is untouchable.

Good luck with that one.
Ayreon IV wrote:Each state respects the Nortonised history timeline of Shireroth.

Agreed
Ayreon IV wrote:None of them can join any other non-Shirerithian state.
Agreed
Ayreon IV wrote:No territory can be ceded away to a non-Shirerithian state or to the Green.
Agreed
Ayreon IV wrote:If after prolonged inactivity (2 IRL months), the Landsraad can by a vote take back the state territory. Failing to uphold these rules can cause the Landsraad to take back territory.
Keep to the MCS standard. Three months of inactivity will result in removal from the game and the state will have been deemed to have collapsed into warlordism - being marked as nominally Shirerithian on the map. No deliberation, no involvement from the Landsraad, no special pleading - it just happens. Shirekeep might then seek to "pacify" the lapsed territory but it would have to show its workings to justify the takeover, the same as any of the other participants.
Ayreon IV wrote:Each state will have one Landsraad rep. Furthermore, each Shirerithian RL citizen will have a seat on the Landsraad. Further powers of the Landsraad can be decided. So the Landsraad will basically be in some respects an OOC guardian council of Shirerithian elders, and for other respects an IC council of fractures state leaders and high nobles.
If the participants need to discuss something OOC, they can do it OOC. Vulture states should only send representatives to the Landsraad if it makes sense for them in their own context to do so.

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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Mahmood Sadri »

I agree with everything Conty says.
Sanama is anarcho-socialist, communalist. That communism thing was just a typo. And yes, it would hardly make sense for them, with a power base in the oppressed classes, to give the Kaiser any sort of allegiance, even a nominal one.
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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Craitman »

Thank you for the positive responses to Tellia's involvement!

With the subject of the claimsmap coming up, I was wondering how this would be represented in the MCS's side of things. There are two approaches that I can think of, but it depends on how much autonomy the vulture states are allowed. Essentially, we (the Council) could vote on secession claims for all of the above and have the claimsmap appear pretty much as it looks with the wranglings in the image above with every vulture appearing in the legend, or Shireroth could remain the nominal independent nation with a plethora of internal striping and hashing to represent the different levels of dissolution. Then again, the latter could also progress into the former over time if need be as states establish their claims more and increase their legitimacy :)
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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Mahmood Sadri »

I would say that if we agree the vulture states are independent, they should show up as such. If they will be able to conclude treaties for example, thereby being recognised by the international community. So, either South Sudan or Somaliland. I would lean towards the first.
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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Rei Milharna »

I prefer more of a Commonwealth of Nations-type arrangement, where peripheral states can opt for full independence if that's what they want, otherwise the Kaiser is nominal head of state, perhaps represented by a governor-general.
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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Continuator »

Rei Milharna wrote:I prefer more of a Commonwealth of Nations-type arrangement, where peripheral states can opt for full independence if that's what they want, otherwise the Kaiser is nominal head of state, perhaps represented by a governor-general.
I think that, at this stage, if that's the future relationship Yardistan wants with Shirekeep then go for it, but events have moved on otherwise.

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Re: time to call it a day?

Post by Mahmood Sadri »

Yes. No need to force the same solution on everyone, but rather have the full spectrum. More realistic too.
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