Removal of the Economics forum from Bastion

[Thadeus Laing]

Dear Madam/Sir/Non-Gender Categorized Person:

I would hereby like to lodge a complaint with the Triumvirate over Bastion
administrator Jonas removing the Economics forum from Bastion. Economics
is an integral part of our particular sector of micronations. To have the Economics
forum removed has destroyed a main avenue for those who wish to contribute
to economics.

Jonas may not care. Others do care. On behalf of the mercantile class of Toketi and
the Gralan Empire, I beseech the Triumvirate to petition the Bastion administration
to reverse this unilateral decision by Jonas.

Signed,

Giles Melang
The Capitalists' Society of Bastion

[Andreas the Wise]

Actually, as that's an OOC matter, it's nothing to do with the triumvirate (citizens collectively decide OOC things). Personally, my views remain the same as here - if it were being used, having it would be nice, but since it wasn't really used ...

[Jonas]

I should start the 'Shoot Giles To Space Society' some day and spread the message... it would be so fun to end his terrible way of pushing on that 'enter'-button too early.

[Verion]

I think that Jonas as a board administrator should remain neutral. Your dislike of Giles should not bias you.

[Jonas]

I think that Jonas as a board administrator should remain neutral. Your dislike of Giles should not bias you.

I would say the same to everyone, my dear Jack. Instead of complaining, he should better try to build up a company which deserves a forum.

[Vilhelm Benkern]

I think it is better to optimistically leave the space open, create the infrastructutre, maintain the Phpbanks and international treaties in which a micronational economy might flourish, rather than close it all down and say "the economy might grow, but we won't help it or recognise it until it is firmly established."

[Jonas]

I think it is better to optimistically leave the space open, create the infrastructutre, maintain the Phpbanks and international treaties in which a micronational economy might flourish, rather than close it all down and say "the economy might grow, but we won't help it or recognise it until it is firmly established."

Then go to the nation you're in if you want an 'optimistic environment'. Nothing that stops anyone to go along with something like that and at least the front page of Bastion (still a hub of nations, now more clear with the MTO leaving) doesn't get a bunch of inactive subfora (next to the already inactive nations ).

[Thadeus Laing]

I would say the same to everyone, my dear Jack. Instead of complaining, he should better try to build up a company which deserves a forum.

Listen here you autocratic excuse for a statesman of Bastion, Commonwealth Global was
the most realistic simulation of a publicly held corporation with many shareholders
that ever graced these boards. (Einhorn-Silvermann-Bochs and VBNC were largely
privately held, a slightly different concept.) There were stockholders, and elected
Board of Directors, offices in various nations. Yet, you remove its subforum and then
grant a top level forum to a very upstart company with no business plan, no organizational
structure, and functionaries to an individual named Thomas Rivers, who shortly thereafter
requests his forum be dismantled!

Screw it. There's not enough people here to sustain the existing nations, let alone a new project. Archive the FCC until further notice.

You archive Commonwealth Global and the Economics forum used by many other companies
and then you turn around and grant that guy a forum? Obviously there was very little planning
or effort put in the enterprise espoused by Mr Rivers. Again, no business plan, no organizational
structure, and no functionaries. Essentially, you give the economic equivalent of a one-man micronation
a top level forum on Bastion. It is absurd.

Shireroth should hurry and pass the Bastion Readministration Plan that gives Shireroth administrative
power over Bastion in composition with multiple accountable individuals because there is too way much power
being held by one individual at this time.

[Jonas]

I always love your flattering way of saying things, Giles.

There were stockholders, and elected
Board of Directors, offices in various nations.

Then you should not have any problem opening such an office in one of those nations. That you can't even get a forum in a nation says enough. Instead of complaining you could put your energy in lobbying in a nation for such a subforum. If you're afraid of the company's 'neutrality': when on Bastion it's also part of a part of this certain micronational community, making that neutrality invalid (and even more when Shireroth would have control over the administration ).


Concerning Rivers: I gave, indeed, a nation - which it was in my eyes - (with a company-structured government) a subforum.

[Orion]

The FCC was going to be a precursor to a nation, akin to how the 13 colonies of America were individual companies, who formed colonies, and in turn established the United States. I had a very in-depth plan on paper with detailed goals and objectives. That I didn't post this is none of your business. As Bastion is intended to host nations, young and old, I asked to have a forum created in which to pursue this experiment/project. I later decided it would be more helpful of me, to the community as a whole, to dedicate my efforts to the existing nations. You confuse the FCC with being an economic project, when it was actually a nation-building project.

[Thadeus Laing]

You confuse the FCC with being an economic project, when it was actually a nation-building project.

No, I knew what the FCC was. I am familiar with the companies chartered for,
the development of colonies on Earth, for example, the London Company. I will not
argue that they had state like qualities. Nor will I argue that many a historian might view
them as having been the "law of the land" in such colonial areas where they held patent.
However they did have shareholders, directors, and were organized on the basis of profit,
and they had a charter.

In short, the The Free Continental Company Co. was a company still. Also, upon closer inspection,
I determined that in fact Commonwealth Global would have competed with The Free Continental Company
Co. on a variety of fronts, such as in the shipping industry, due to its fleet of ships which would have
sailed around Micras under the Free Continental Company flag. Thus, for that reason too it was not fair for it
to have a top level forum when Commonwealth Global's subforum was removed and archived.

It has been said "Well just get a subforum on an individual nation's forum if the Economics forum
is gone on Bastion." Well, this has been tried. However Shireroth would not even create a subforum for
CWG, the largest company in Shirekeep.

The excuse of the Shirerithian trade minister there was that CWG was 'not large enough,' and
thereforewas only qualified to be able to post sticky threads pertaining to company business
in the trade ministry forum. Well, that indicates that there is a problem with the Shirerithian
trade ministry's appraisal process, because CWG was by all accounts the largest company based
in Shireroth. By the standard of their trade minister, if CWG was not large enough to get a
subforum there, nobody can! Therefore, the Economics forum on Bastion should not have
been removed, to prevent such situations as this one.

The Capitalists' Society hereby adds the following policy plank:

- To support a set of standards implemented for appraising the value of objects in
micronational economics that is consistent across a variety of nations,
akin to how certain aspects of rec-warring have been standardized; this may
be accomplished by extension to the existing SCUE treaty system or by way
of new treaties and organizations.

This is in addition to the previously mentioned planks:

- To support restoration of a top level forum for Economics on Bastion.

- To support the passage of the Bastion Readministration Plan in Shireroth
to democratize control over the Bastion forums, including the Economics forum.

[Lyssansa Rossheim]

I thought CWG had been dissolved?

To support a set of standards implemented for appraising the value of objects in
micronational economics that is consistent across a variety of nations,
akin to how certain aspects of rec-warring have been standardized

Given that far more time has been spent arguing about rules systems than actually recwarring, I'm not certain I'd agree with that assertion.

To support the passage of the Bastion Readministration Plan in Shireroth
to democratize control over the Bastion forums, including the Economics forum.

I wouldn't say that the Bastion Readministration Plan is about democratizing the forum...and besides, even if it is passed in Shireroth, that doesn't necessarily mean anything will happen given that Shireroth has no authority over other Bastion countries.

It has been said "Well just get a subforum on an individual nation's forum if the Economics forum
is gone on Bastion." Well, this has been tried. However Shireroth would not even create a subforum for
CWG, the largest company in Shirekeep.

If you had asked me for a forum back when I was Kaiseress, I would probably have given you one; but instead you thrust a rather length laundry-list of legal demands in my face and then repeatedly ignored my advice. How many times did I point out that, under the new charter, the Kaiser doesn't have the authority to grant everything you were asking? Quite a few times, I seem to recall.

CWG may have been the largest company in Micras, but it didn't actually seem to do all that much besides hand out shares and try to play the part of a great multinational in a world where governments aren't hostage to big business. Now if you want to go back to basics and found a company that will actually do something productive, then I'll help you. I'll even build a floating artificial island where you can base your company- tax free- on the solemn understanding that you stick to economics and don't cause political trouble.

Perhaps then we'll see whether you can walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

[Thadeus Laing]

Duchess von Rossheim, greetings. Firstly, yes, CWG has been dissolved. Now, on to your comments.

I wouldn't say that the Bastion Readministration Plan is about democratizing the forum...and besides, even if it is passed in Shireroth, that doesn't necessarily mean anything will happen given that Shireroth has no authority over other Bastion countries.

The forums would be much more democratic than they currently are if the
Bastion Readministration Plan is passed. Rather than one individual
controlling everything, a nation with a long tradition of democracy would
be entrusted with the responsibility of acting as a fair and impartial
caretaker. Shireroth would have no authority over the Bastion countries.
The goal of the Bastion Readministration Plan is to provide for the mundane
administration of the national forums hosted on Bastion, as well as the
international forums and spaces, such as the Economics forum.

Duchess, with regards to your other comments about when you were
Kaiser, and about how CWG could have or should have, in your opinion,
done things differently in order to obtain favor with your Kaisership, as well
as how I should proceed if I want to gain your assistance in some way in
starting a new company, I think the main thing worth considering is your
past stated opposition to the concept of micronational economics. Basically,
in the past, you once stated that essentially you do not believe in micronational
economics and did not want it to be implemented. This is a matter of public
record.

Unless this belief has changed, it would be my advice then my advice, to the
members and supporters of the Capitalists' Society, that your promises of "a
floating artificial island where you can base your company- tax free" to any
company I should create or a company that anyone else creates should be taken
with a grain of salt. On the other hand, if you have genuinely changed your mind,
well perhaps we can help each other out. Ideally, a micronational stock exchange
would be tax-exempt and be located on a neutral, international space, so as to
minimize political interference and give its employees diplomatic immunity.
Perhaps this could be located on that donated island of yours? I perceive in you
a distaste for 'big business.' Well, a stock exchange on a neutral space, such
as the one I describe, would be run by an international governing body, and not a private
entity or one controlled by industry. That would leave no chance for 'big business'
as you see it to dominate the functioning of the exchange.

The Capitalists' Society also commends, due to our general policy of supporting
tax reduction throughout Micras, the decision that the Kingdom of Leichenburg
made in Royal Decree No. 50 to grant a generous 100% tax exemption to subjects
living in Essen and Hermanburg.

[Kaiser Aiomide]

Rather than one individual
controlling everything, a nation with a long tradition of democracy would be entrusted with the responsibility of acting as a fair and impartial caretaker.

[Thadeus Laing]

Leave it up to Shireroth's own Kaiser to ruin my attempt at painting Shireroth's
government in the most benevolent and harmless light!

It is the Landsraad, their venerable democratic legislative body, that I was chiefly
referring to when I stated that Shireroth is nation with a long tradition of democracy.
However it is also in Shirerithian tradition that the Kaiser has ultimate power and
can behave as democratically or undemocratically as zir sees fit, let them eat cake,
off with their heads, etc. Still, Shireroth remains as of right now a better option for the
administration of Bastion for a variety of reasons, historical and otherwise. (Though
this can, as many things can, change.)

[Andreas the Wise]

It's interesting to see the discussion this has generated.

[Kaiser Aiomide]

Thadeus Melanje is nothing if not mesmerizing.

[Jonas]

The Capitalists' Society also commends, due to our general policy of supporting
tax reduction throughout Micras, the decision that the Kingdom of Leichenburg
made in Royal Decree No. 50 to grant a generous 100% tax exemption to subjects
living in Essen and Hermanburg.

Excellent, while you send ridiculous advices into the world, you could ask them for a forum.

[Orion]

Thadeus Melanje is nothing if not mesmerizing moronizing.

^ Fixed that typo for you.

[Kaiser Aiomide]

I never said the mesmerism was because of anything redeeming. The David Silverman face is a common reaction for me, where I just don't even.