Some Thoughts

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Some Thoughts

Post by Hesam Jayatar »

I've got to wonder about the idea of communication between us, and I've got some comments.

I was thinking back to a Political Philosophy course I just finished, where my central study was the republic. In our time, most governments on this planet claim a republic-like structure. Its so standard that deviations from the idea of an executive, legislative and judicial division of authority seem bizarre and unwieldy. I'm not aiming to trot out false analogous themes between classical western civilization and this community, so I'll limit my comments to the commonalities that I do see. Namely, in a historical context we are very similar to a res publica in the classic sense (Chrimigules please feel free to correct any Latin terms I use). When I say that, I mean the classical concept of a commonwealth. First if you're bothering to read this, try if possible, to separate the modern connotations of the terms 'republic' and 'commonwealth' from what I am defining here. For lack of appropriate terms, they are very different concepts except in their basic inception. When I use the classic definitions, I will refer to them by their Latin or Greek root. With this caveat in mind, I'll explain my point.

A number of the political philosophers that I studied (Machiavelli, Livy, Cicero), have considered some of the same issues were are facing today. If you'll excuse the indulgence, and play along with my scenario, consider the correlations between our concern and those of classic history. The res publica in its most basic definition is government without a 'head.' This is not to be confused with anarchia (without a ruler) or libertarianism, communism or any of the other populist regime. The 'government without a head' reference did not preclude the importance of executive, legislative and judicial functions even amongst those individuals who populated the res publica. It just looked at them from a very basic pragmatism.

For example:

Imagine you are an ancient Roman Patrician (sort of like a noble but I won't go into it). You're essentially only concerned for the well-being of your family. While your family may have alliances or allegiances to other families, your only major concern is to be left alone to conduct your business. You've no interest in creating an empire, or forming a kingdom and the limit of your wildest ambition is to perhaps one day become patriarch of many families, although you're well aware that such a ridiculous idea could never occur. This is because Latins, Etruscans, and Sabini as well as other tribes (extended families) of the Anio are simply too different to ever possibly get along. However, as it is, you are Patriarch of your family, just one of a dozen who live in Rome. You live in Rome out of necessity for trade and because other neighbouring principalities are mostly hostile.

Fast forward a few hundred years, and you've discovered a few amazing and different things. First, (besides still being alive! yay!) You are certainly sure that no one in Rome is really all that fond of being a Kingdom. It worked well for a bit, but giving that much power to a single leader really isn't that smart of an idea. You also dislike that under a King, the onus of everyone's motivation is the King himself and no longer your family (it's utter nonsense, I know). So, after you and your other fellow Patrician Patriarchs became completely fed up with the last king (may the Tarquins rot!) you sort of looked around and realized that you had a serious problem. Namely, all of the Patricians still needed to live in Rome out of necessity, and everyone realized that you had to get along some way. If you don't get along, the markets suffer and people start leaving for other cities. That's pretty bad, because you'll have an empty one-person Family by the end of that road, and no one wants that. So you have the problem that order needs to be maintained, but not at the cost of your interests. That being: "I'm all for maintaining order, but leave my family's interests alone," and every other Patriarch in the room pretty much thinks what you said is their cup of tea. Unfortunately, no one has any idea of where to go from there, so they do what history has always done, and they consult the manual. In this instance, the manual is Athens (and to a lesser extent Creta). So, a number of the families send some of their sons to Athens. What they came back with was sort of astonishing, it turns out the Greeks had some similar issues a few hundred years before! Well, happy days then! What did they do? the Patricians asked expectantly. They formed a res publica. GASP! Here's how and why:

During the Kingdom era of Rome (may the Tarquins rot!) the kings had a council (senate) of patricians who were basically ignored, so that put everyone off the idea until Rome's sons returned from Athens with these new and crazy ideas. The concept was very simple. Since the Patricians were all that really mattered, they agreed to the following arrangement. They agreed to resurrect the senate, but with huge stipulations.

First, the patriarch of each extended family (tribe) was appointed as a senator (this was later extended).

Second, the senate couldn't dictate how each family was to conduct their business, unless that business practice effected everyone.

Third, the senate only held congress when necessary, otherwise there was no need for it, and the whole idea made everyone fairly suspicious anyway.

Fourth: This is the important one, the biggest problem that the Patricians saw with their problem was communication. Since they didn't have or want a King (may the Tarquins rot!), there was no central hub for communication of the state to flow to. Without a central hub, communication became unreliable and degenerated into rumour and suspicion. The senate provided a way, not just to work out problems, but also to properly allow for the flow of communication directly. This was the essence of the res publica, not as a means of governance since the senate could not dictate to the families, but as a means of communication. This concept became the basis of the phrase Senatus Populusque Romanus SPQR, The Senate and People of Rome. This sounds like government doesn't it? But really, its not. Both the Senate and the people were considered sovereign when combined. The importance of this is that the senate basically allowed each Patrician family to draw a big box around themselves in the sand that provided sovereignty in the concept of Cuique Suum or, 'To Each His Own.' The Patricians didn't particularly like each other, but they liked surviving a lot more, so this provided a perfect balance for them between Security and Liberty. The balance of which has been one of the main concerns for any group of people for our entire history.

"Wow, Hesam, you sure talk a lot don't you?"

Quiet Patrician! I'm still getting to my point! I'm old you know, it takes me a while to get all of this sorted out. Besides, shouldn't you be more concerned about the market price of amphorae or the number of your family present at the Forum Magnum? Those numbers are all that matter you know! Lower forum numbers mean lower activity and less confidence in your micr.. er family! Now you've gotten me off topic. Alright, here we go:

So the rest of this post shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

After a suitable paring of millennia, You dear Patrician find your self as a member of the City of Bastion. You remain a high ranking Patrician in your family. Once again (repetitive isn't it?) you find yourself in a dilemma. It seems the City of Bastion has a number of other families of Patricians, and you're all quite certain you don't want a King (may Tymaria and the GC rot!). All the other families of Patricians (there's six of them total) are also quite certain that they just want to be left to their own devices and not dictated to. But, all the families of Patricians are also quite certain that some measure of order has to be maintained in order to keep the forum magnum of the City of Bastion active and open. Sceptical of each other's strange customs, whether it be the Etruscans from Antica, or the Sabini of Gralus, all six families are aware that they probably need each other, but have no interest in interfering. Should we perhaps consult the manual?

What I'm suggesting directly, is that the Situation Room become the senate room. That when concerns come up, any citizen of Bastion post their concern. That if that concern involves all of Bastion, we come together and work out a solution. Now, when I say 'concern' I don't just mean complaints. I mean problems that involve all of us. Whether it be one nations activity, or another nations interest in a pan-bastion project (like the World Expo). That everyone gets a say (You're still that Patrician remember?) and that we agree to some basic rules of conduct. This portion would adequately address the concerns of security.

As for liberty, I'm also suggesting that we have no formal titles, no elections, no appointments and no formal positions. I'm suggesting that this council does not sit permanently, but only as needed. This is a resource, not a government and teamwork should never be a dirty word. I think aside from those basic rules of conduct, we agree to some basic rules of limitations on what we can address here. Most of all, I think that if a conversation or meeting held here gets out of line, that ari lock the sub-forum immediately, until people can play nice.

The aim isn't to regulate, or act as a judiciary. The aim of this entire post is to have a resource that we can all go to and a forum of commonality where we can communicate equally and clearly without problems. We're basically there anyway, all we need to do is agree to some common principles and we're set.
Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Carl Jackson

Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Carl Jackson »

Hear hear.

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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Octavius »

Generally speaking, I like this, and not just because of the Latin. There are some practical concerns, though.

Are we going to rely on a "I know it when I see it" a system of conduct, because that's certainly not all that concrete.

And for those who may not be aware (related to Hesam's suggestion to ignore the commonly understood notions of what "republic" and "commonwealth" mean and go for the root meaning): republic derives from the Latin res publica, meaning "things which are public", or "public affairs/matters/issues"; commonwealth derives from the earlier commonweal, meaning "the common good", making commonwealth mean "that which is for the common good". Roughly speaking.

So yeah, Situation Room should be used as a place to discuss common issues in an attempt to resolve them. I agree with Hesam.
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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Hesam Jayatar »

I'm suggesting some meta rules. Not related to governance or culture, but administration and moderation. More like a toned down version of rules of order.

Some basics:

- If we're discussing, we avoid personal jabs, if someone feels they're being targeted, we stop posting until people calm down.

- If we want to vote we do, if people believe that consensus doesn't solve the problem we use our combined energies to solve it. (ie voting is not the defacto solution)

- If there is a project, people put it up for consideration.

- If there is a dispute, we appoint some sort of mediator, either an individual, council or general mediation.

- We keep on topic, so the issue doesn't get swarmed with every trite and pedantic concern that happens to be vaguely related. When people get defensive, they start throwing anything they consider to be an equally legitimate concern on to the table in hopes that it detracts from the accusations against them

This type of thing.
Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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ari
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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by ari »

Well, my first impulse when I saw this (and yes, I did read the whole post before having said impulse) was NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

But, on rereading, and ignoring all the random rambling about Ancient Rome, and furthermore having been further briefed on the matter on IRC, this apparently boils down to... what Hesam said in the last paragraph, I guess? So, yeah, I guess it sounds good, can't really come up with anything more to say since whenever I try to plan out social or decisionmaking systems like this I end up doing it "by the book" and overly formal and systematised...
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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Octavius »

So, it turns into something out of the film Brazil?
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Hesam wrote:Trains are very efficient at making long lines of people dead, and I suppose they could also be used for transportation or something.

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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Emir of Raspur »

Octavius wrote:So, it turns into something out of the film Brazil?
No cribbing our source material! =p

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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Hesam Jayatar »

Ultimately, there is an overarching 'spirit' that should be constantly remembered. While this may be obvious to everyone else, I only really considered it after careful consideration of why Andreas conducts himself the way he does. When all is said and done, we cannot rely exclusively on forums and institutions to solve our problems. We must actually heed each other the way Andreas does. To be blunt, if we don't act civilized toward each other, we can hardly consider ourselves civilized. The Parliaments and Senates of our time are merely institutions, buildings. They only function as well as the people who compose them. Fill a Parliament with convicted criminals and you will get disorder and chaos. I've been personally working on my self-restraint since moving to Bastion and I understand I've a ways to go in that sense. However, I don't just mean an absence of swearing etc.. but the actual way we interact. If we approach every new issue as if its a problem, a threat or an immediate failure, we're of course bound to fail. If we approach every discussion with mistrust, venom and jabbing reactionary comments, we're going to fail. It doesn't matter how good our rules are, if people don't make a personal choice to follow them.

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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Harvey »

While it's good of you to realize that acting civilized is a personal responsibility and a challenge, it still presents the practical problem of your solution being totally teethless. Certain people (I won't name names, but really; I'm starting to wonder why we're all not naming names at this point) seem to gleefully enjoy circumventing any system, formal or not, to act irresponsibly or otherwise annoying in an attempt to prove how useless the rules are, have some lulz, or both. It only takes one of them doing it once to destroy all semblance of order. Telling everyone to “be nice” simply don’t work – ask a certain Ikol about his little reign of tranquility.

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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Farzan Shahanshah »

Overall I agree with Hesam, and mediation's a very good idea (and not just because I've been banging on about it since the beginning). I'll be (if law school ever gets off its backside) doing mediation training over the summer at which point I can run a slimmed-down-and-not-breaking-contracts bit of training for everyone else.

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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Hesam Jayatar »

Harvey, I think you could have phrased your point better, but thanks for the encouragement.

Farzan Shah, you of course already know my thoughts on the matter.

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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Andreas the Wise »

Emir of Sajin wrote:I'm suggesting some meta rules. Not related to governance or culture, but administration and moderation. More like a toned down version of rules of order.

Some basics:

- If we're discussing, we avoid personal jabs, if someone feels they're being targeted, we stop posting until people calm down.

- If we want to vote we do, if people believe that consensus doesn't solve the problem we use our combined energies to solve it. (ie voting is not the defacto solution)

- If there is a project, people put it up for consideration.

- If there is a dispute, we appoint some sort of mediator, either an individual, council or general mediation.

- We keep on topic, so the issue doesn't get swarmed with every trite and pedantic concern that happens to be vaguely related. When people get defensive, they start throwing anything they consider to be an equally legitimate concern on to the table in hopes that it detracts from the accusations against them

This type of thing.
Your first post, and especially this, sound excellent to me :mrgreen: And I definitely agree also that the spirit of the forum is important.
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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Orion »

Emir of Sajin wrote:I'm suggesting some meta rules. Not related to governance or culture, but administration and moderation. More like a toned down version of rules of order.

Some basics:

- If we're discussing, we avoid personal jabs, if someone feels they're being targeted, we stop posting until people calm down.

- If we want to vote we do, if people believe that consensus doesn't solve the problem we use our combined energies to solve it. (ie voting is not the defacto solution)

- If there is a project, people put it up for consideration.

- If there is a dispute, we appoint some sort of mediator, either an individual, council or general mediation.

- We keep on topic, so the issue doesn't get swarmed with every trite and pedantic concern that happens to be vaguely related. When people get defensive, they start throwing anything they consider to be an equally legitimate concern on to the table in hopes that it detracts from the accusations against them

This type of thing.
You do realize that trying to enforce this upon those who would regularly violate it is like trying to calm a rabid buffalo with flowers?

As Harvey pointed out already, if we're not willing to stand up and tell someone to STFU because they're being an ass, then all the rules in the world aren't going to make a difference.

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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Hesam Jayatar »

Andreas, I'm glad you appreciate the effort I put into this. Even if people disagree with, or criticize this thread; I've come to the conclusion that it is at least a personal revelation for me to appreciate your point of view and be personally invested in it.

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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Gerk »

I do like this idea.

I have two concerns. First, I am wary at calling it a Senate. Not because I think it is one in the modern sense or that it will become one, but because of what people outside of Bastion will then think, after we've spent so long convincing them that this merger is non-political. Perhaps a better term would be 'Forum,' as in the more archaic term of a meeting place. It doesn't have that sort of political connotation that 'Senate' does.

Second, I do share Harvey's concerns that there may be problems related to enforcing (if you can call it that, that's a rather strong word) this system. However, I do recognize that you said this is not intended to be a judicial system, and I certainly respect that. It should really only be a place to talk problems out and generate ideas for solutions, not to shovel out punishment for bad behavior.
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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Harvey »

My concerns are less with punishing members for some offense and more about asking how we keep order when things begin to degenerate. We all agree that personal attacks are bad, but then someone posts one, potentially even without really thinking the situation through. I’m thinking Scott’s kindergarten post here. Civility, once lost, is difficult to regain. Should we ask people to leave the conversation if they cannot play nice, and, if so, what if they refuse? What if they don’t believe what they said is offensive and they feel a bit persecuted for speaking their mind on a matter? This isn’t cut and dry territory here.

I know I get accused of being negative a lot, but come on – we’ve seen this on Bastion a few times before. If we want to set up a more perfect system to handle our disputes, then they ought to at least address how they’re improvements beyond hoping really hard that it’s all going to work out.

In a vague attempt to be positive, I'll suggest the following: anyone can ask for someone else to leave the conversation and at least two others must second and third. If it’s thirded, it holds and the person in question must refrain from posting in the discussion for 24 hours, with mods and admins have the authority to delete violating posts. However, if it’s a consensus-based decision, or the person being asked to leave is important to the resolution, then we cannot call the matter closed until they’ve had time to return and have their say. This only applies to Situation Room topics.

Hopefully this won’t need to be used very often and merely having it around will encourage people to think before they post, or at least be willing to edit things out.

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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Octavius »

I don't think that Hesam is necessarily suggesting that it be renamed Senate, but rather comparing it to the function of the Roman Kingdom's Senate. Actually naming it a Senate would be a bad idea.
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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Hesam Jayatar »

Chris is correct

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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Gerk »

Ok, that hadn't been entirely clear, but sure.
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Re: Some Thoughts

Post by Hesam Jayatar »

The idea was that we're already most of the way there. The Situation Room provides essentially all the basic concepts of the Senate of Rome during the Kingdom era. What I'm suggesting is that we as a community are now at the position that we require some pragmatic adjustments to what we already have. Those changes are listed in the summary of suggested rules in one of the other posts I made in this thread. The principles being that:

- We are simulating nation-states, and therefore by their very definition are simulating civilization.

- That we cannot ever hope to succeed in that objective unless we agree to be 'civil' to each other at least to the point where success is possible.

- That if we do decide to agree, some common principles of decorum would be a beneficial way of achieving that.

- Finally, that we define the limitations of those principles so that we are not risking our individual sovereignty, thereby balancing liberty and security.

Notes:

- One of the main theories of the foundation of Bastion was ensuring the survival of its participants in this community (thus, a principle of security).

- The inferred principle of liberty was 'to each his own' by de facto. I am suggesting the implementation of further principles to ensure that our liberty is held in equal balance as our security. (Meaning, that we treat each other well, thereby ensuring our mutual liberty, as well as our mutual security by avoiding the issue of people quitting because they felt wronged or disinterested with popular trends).

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