Microwiki thread: Application

[Scott Alexander]

This sort of thing is the reason why I'm not willing to sign off on those publicly agreed community standards or whatever.

That same thread, plus one in General, is also why I am doubtful of the community standards, but for different reasons. I mean, just today we had Malliki give me "is it that you have a huge ego or are you just a narcissist?" just for linking to my blog, Braden with "Fuck them, I say. They're trash at any rate." just for some people not wanting micronations with simulated elements in the OAM, and Malliki with "Bunch of 12-year-olds telling us we're not cool. Go make shitty youtube vids retards!" for same.

I'd call all three of those comments exactly the sort of nasty statements I and hopefully others were hoping this community could avoid. But if I were to mention this publicly, I'd probably just get called "soft-skinned" or be accused of trying to censor people and everyone would think of some reason why the community standards didn't apply in this case and there would be no decision procedure to determine whether they did. I expect I'll still get flak just for mentioning this here. And even if by some wild stretch of the imagination the majority of people agreed that sort of thing was undesirable, the community standards are nonbinding and unenforceable and nothing could be done about it anyway.

So the community standards are basically a big exercise in "Hey, let's pretend our community has standards and that the problem doesn't exist!"

[Andreas the Wise]

Your reply raises two interesting points in regard to comments made on this matter before. First, it would appear you can't just expect everyone to automatically act with basic human decency and so agreeing to these statements publicly may help. And second, Malliki is a decent chap and doesn't need a code to know when he's crossed the line, so I'm sure he'll take your comments on board and adjust his behaviour accordingly.

The unrelated interesting point you bring up is how to take "this is how people should behave" and deal appropriately and lovingly with people who don't do so. That's something probably better discussed in this thread or a new one entirely. I would hope that in this case, people could just take your post as a friendly reminder that they can do better and be more aware of avoiding it in the future.

[Malliki]

No, I won't. If you have sensitive eyes, set me as a foe then, because apparently I'm not allowed to express my views in any other way than the pre-approved format. Perhaps I should PM every post I intend to make to you so you can clear them beforehand?

[Hesam Jayatar]

I'm going to agree with Malliki here. Mostly because decency is a matter of personal choice, rather than something to be enforced. Our different moral positions should not be pitted against one another simply because it offends. This goes back to tolerance vs. intolerance and a debate that will likely continue forever. I'm personally refraining from swearing and making directly insulting comments on the common boards, but that's a matter of choice. I find the idea of religious rhetoric to be probably about as offensive as you would find my swearing, but I'm not going to make a big deal about that. How effective would they be regardless? Does this mean that if I lost my temper once and spouted some remarks that I'd be outcast? What prevents me from doing that now? Perhaps this is a matter of trust rather than enforcement?

In summary, I suppose my point is, can we not just agree to find an understanding without starting with codes and policies?

[Scott Alexander]

I am...not quite going to agree with Malliki and Hesam, but I will just say that if you're not a jerk, you don't need a piece of paper saying "We're all going to not be jerks!", and if you are a jerk, a vague nonbinding piece of paper won't stop you.

I think Malliki's mention of setting someone as a foe is a very reasonable compromise, but when I tried this on Shireroth I was told that I couldn't do it to moderators. I think everyone on Bastion is probably a moderator of something or other, so that limits its usefulness; does anyone have a solution?

[Octavius]

Thicker skin.

[Hesam Jayatar]

but I will just say that if you're not a jerk, you don't need a piece of paper saying "We're all going to not be jerks!", and if you are a jerk, a vague nonbinding piece of paper won't stop you.

Didn't I also say that?

[Scott Alexander]

You're going to make one heck of a schoolteacher one day, Chris. I suggest kindergarten, so you can teach kids that bullying is okay and the fault of the victims not being thick-skinned enough early, before anyone pollutes their mind with namby-pamby liberalism.

[Gerk]

It's not the swearing that bothers me, it's when it's used in a personal attack against another member of these boards. Even when it's not directed at me, I don't want to be around conduct like that.

[Octavius]

It's not the teacher's job to tell students to stop being jerks to each other unless it directly impedes on classroom or school activity. Sure, you can comfort a student if somebody uses mean words, but calling them meanie heads will just encourage it. A stiff upper lip, not feeding the troll beast, is what gets it to stop.

[Malliki]

You're going to make one heck of a schoolteacher one day, Chris. I suggest kindergarten, so you can teach kids that bullying is okay and the fault of the victims not being thick-skinned enough early, before anyone pollutes their mind with namby-pamby liberalism.

So what you are basically saying is that you either are in kindergarten, or that you are as mature as a kindergarten kid? Otherwise I can only see one of the personal attacks you criticise me and others for making.

[Scott Alexander]

Malliki: No, I believe you misinterpreted that. Chris is going to be a teacher, and I asked him how his policy of "anyone who objects to verbal abuse should be more thick-skinned" would work in a school setting.

[Octavius]

Pretty easy.

"He made fun of me because my shoes are out of style!"
"Okay... why does it matter to you what he thinks?" And then proceed from there to teach the kid some self respect. Actual bullying is a different thing than people just saying bad words or criticizing you.

[Malliki]

Malliki: No, I believe you misinterpreted that. Chris is going to be a teacher, and I asked him how his policy of "anyone who objects to verbal abuse should be more thick-skinned" would work in a school setting.

You didn't ask, you made a statement, and now you're trying to weasel out by using the "oh, you misinterpreted me" defense.

[Gerk]

It's not the teacher's job to tell students to stop being jerks to each other unless it directly impedes on classroom or school activity. Sure, you can comfort a student if somebody uses mean words, but calling them meanie heads will just encourage it. A stiff upper lip, not feeding the troll beast, is what gets it to stop.

Sorry, but is discipline even taught anymore? Are teachers not allowed to scold children who use insults? And I don't mean use insults back, but punish them in some way (a time-out corner, etc.) so that they learn that what they said was wrong and shouldn't do it anymore?

[Octavius]

If it's in the classroom, then students using insults is disrupting class, and needs to stop. Students using insults on the playground is another story.

[Gerk]

So you're teaching kids that there's a double standard, then. Great.

When I was in school, we were disciplined during all school hours, whether inside the classroom, or out on the playground.

[Octavius]

You were disciplined for saying that somebody said something dumb?

[Gerk]

*spends a minute trying to understand the above post*
You lost me a bit there. We were disciplined for insulting others.

[Malliki]

Another question: Is it the job of the parents to discipline their children, or should that responsibility be transferred to teachers?