Moving On, Part 2

[Mira Raynora Major]

Although Shireroth has not had an easy few weeks, it appears there is a growing determination to move on...but as there are still a couple of issues hindering me in this regard, I thought I'd raise them here.

Firstly, I'm not at all clear about the state of current thinking. A number of ideas were mooted in Kizzy's "moving on" thread and Elwynn in particular appears to be acting on a few of them, but I just don't know what's been decided and what is- and isn't- seen as acceptable. It would really help me if I had a better feel for the direction in which you guys are headed!

Secondly- and more controversially- I think we need to tighten up on non-citizens muscling into Shirerithian discussions. Without mentioning any names, certain people seem to think it's okay to publicly renounce their citizenship and yet still have the right to spout their views about Shireroth's future whenever they feel like it. I really do think that has to stop if we're going to get anywhere.

[Hallbjorn]

Secondly- and more controversially- I think we need to tighten up on non-citizens muscling into Shirerithian discussions. Without mentioning any names, certain people seem to think it's okay to publicly renounce their citizenship and yet still have the right to spout their views about Shireroth's future whenever they feel like it. I really do think that has to stop if we're going to get anywhere.

Agreed!

[Fjorleif]

In Elwynn we are indeed in the process of making the forum of the Elwynnese Union a place safe from trouble-makers who ruin the appetite of so many for participating in Shireroth, but there seem to be difficulties with implementing that policy on the technical side.

[Malliki Nur Pinito]

What non-citizens are talking trash?

[Fjorleif]

Secondly- and more controversially- I think we need to tighten up on non-citizens muscling into Shirerithian discussions. Without mentioning any names, certain people seem to think it's okay to publicly renounce their citizenship and yet still have the right to spout their views about Shireroth's future whenever they feel like it. I really do think that has to stop if we're going to get anywhere.

What non-citizens are talking trash?

Jack, for example.

[Kaiseress Kizzy]

I think, at the time, it was important to have the discussion open to everyone citizen or not. Of course the decisions to dissolve should only be handled by current citizens. The discussion on how to move forward immediately after the vote was valuable to hear from non-citizens I think as it exposed some base feelings people had about Shireroth.

We want to continue, and I think we need to proceed by primarily taking into consideration the opinions of those of us who are still here and interested in making Shireroth work again. It's not about forcing out people, its about getting together the people who want to work at it. And I agree that perhaps we need tools to filter out the peanut gallery in some forums to help current citizens concentrate.

[Hallbjorn]

And I agree that perhaps we need tools to filter out the peanut gallery in some forums to help current citizens concentrate.

Yep! Out with those hecklers!

[Jacobus Loki]

And I agree that perhaps we need tools to filter out the peanut gallery in some forums to help current citizens concentrate.

Agreed. However, I believe we need to be careful about throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I'd hope to include people like Harvey, Jonas, Greg, Scott & such.

BTW, I wanted to discuss an old project of mine.

In the Mango Carta of 2012,

Art. I, Section B, subsection h-

Should the nation suffer from inactivity, the Kaiser may suspend this charter for a period not to exceed ten years ASC during which time the Kaiser may rule by solely by decree. Inactivity is defined as 10 years ASC with less than 5 posts by Shirithian citizens.

The time frame and post count is arbitrary, but I added it to try to avoid a 2007 style meltdown, so that the Kaiser would be able to jump-start the country.

A self-destruct-clause could be written, to the affect of "should X number of years ASC pass without a post from any citizen, the nation will be considered to have ended."

Thus an automatic pilot end clause woud be in effect, and all folks who wanted the country to end would have to do is shut up.

[Jacobus Loki]

PS- Perhaps going back to a limit on numbers of citizenships? Better 10ish folks who have a level of commitment than a bunch who stop off for a beer.

[Mira Raynora Major]

If you start imposing limits on multiple citizenships, I think even ten may prove optimistic.

The issue isn't that people are too busy to contribute here; many are being put off by aspects of Shireroth. Also, why leave the door open to former citizens- some of whom haven't been active in years- while excluding people who are currently active but involved with other projects? That sounds like a recipe for bad feeling.

The more I think about it, the real issue here isn't with the Charter or the structure of the country, it's with the community. Shirerithians don't seem to enjoy working together; in some cases they can't work together. Decentralisation is a symptom of this problem rather than the cause...and it isn't something we can fix with more rules or legislation.

For much of the last year, we've been trying to force the country together and that simply isn't working. We need to rebuild our community spirit from the ground up if Shireroth is to have any chance of surviving. That means putting our differences to one side and reconnecting as people, but it also involves distancing ourselves from the peanut gallery and other disinterested commentators. Otherwise, what's the damn point? Why be a Shirerithian citizen when you can be a non-citizen and still have your say?

[Hallbjorn]

Very wise words from the Queen of Lichbrook!

[Fjorleif]

I second that motion!

[Kaiseress Kizzy]

As a first, small, step, I've set the Front Gate forum to be read-only to everyone except those in the Shirerithian user group.

[Fjorleif]

Great! May many suchs steps follow, and hopefully can the Imperial States also be made read-only as a whole for anyone, but residents of those Imperial States!

[Mira Octavius-Aryani]

*Glances back into Shireroth*

[Kaltor Win'Eth]

Secondly- and more controversially- I think we need to tighten up on non-citizens muscling into Shirerithian discussions. Without mentioning any names, certain people seem to think it's okay to publicly renounce their citizenship and yet still have the right to spout their views about Shireroth's future whenever they feel like it. I really do think that has to stop if we're going to get anywhere.

For a moment I thought this was a remark towards me, while I thought that I had been (or at least tried to be) constructive.

And yeah, hey to you all! After considering this for a while (mostly because some time has passed, Nathan and certain predecessors having done quite a good job of keeping things from exploding in our faces and the nifty stuff of people like Harald) I decided to return to my Heimat. I'm not bringing Kildare with me (like I already told Jake) but I hope to help in a constructive way. I assume it will not be easy for everyone to cooperate with me (or trust me), so I don't blame you.

I honestly believe that we can turn the tide if we assemble the group that's here right now. We should set some guidelines (and while I know, Mira, that you consider it two years too late for it, it doesn't hurt to actually do it) and perhaps even restrict receiving citizenship.


I third the Queens motion for change!

To summarize:

We need to rebuild our community spirit from the ground up
--> HOW?
1. Putting our differences to one side and reconnecting as people
2. Distancing ourselves from the peanut gallery and other disinterested commentators.

Perhaps we could introduce two kinds of citizenship: residency (inactive or just lurking around) and active citizenship (for those who are active. They receive a vote in the Landsraad).
Perhaps write a list with some common goals with which citizens need to agree (and have to follow). For example: we could say that people who are repeatedly nagging about killing Shireroth don't receive citizenship (or can even lose it in extreme cases). Of course I'm not talking about someone who just mentions it, but as mentioned here by several others: why wouldn't we help those Shirerithians who really don't want to go on by freeing them from their burden?

[Mira Raynora Major]

For a moment I thought this was a remark towards me, while I thought that I had been (or at least tried to be) constructive.

I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote that...

I assume it will not be easy for everyone to cooperate with me (or trust me), so I don't blame you.

I maintain that there is a fundamental lack of cooperation (and trust) in Shireroth, which needs to be addressed...so you've probably come to the right place.

I honestly believe that we can turn the tide if we assemble the group that's here right now. We should set some guidelines (and while I know, Mira, that you consider it two years too late for it, it doesn't hurt to actually do it) and perhaps even restrict receiving citizenship.

Nah, I consider it ten years too late...but what the hell, who's counting?

More seriously, I think we have to be flexible: given all the time, bad blood and sheer range of opinions, trying to gather everyone onto "the same page" is probably only achievable by excluding people...which is going to be a recipe for trouble.

Perhaps we could introduce two kinds of citizenship: residency (inactive or just lurking around) and active citizenship (for those who are active. They receive a vote in the Landsraad).

This is probably not going to be a popular idea...but perhaps the answer, at least in the short term, is a "two speed" Shireroth? Some people want there to be much greater centralisation and others, while happy to be within the Shireroth, prefer a more sedate pace of life. I really don't see why we can't make room for both, with a little give-and-take.

Perhaps write a list with some common goals with which citizens need to agree (and have to follow).

I think we should try to come up with a list of goals, although I think we should try to avoid making them rules. Shireroth already has a lot of rules; trouble is, people are better at sticking to the letter than the spirit.

For example: we could say that people who are repeatedly nagging about killing Shireroth don't receive citizenship (or can even lose it in extreme cases). Of course I'm not talking about someone who just mentions it, but as mentioned here by several others: why wouldn't we help those Shirerithians who really don't want to go on by freeing them from their burden?

I'm against the idea of removing citizenship from people; even with safeguards, this is something that could be abused. Also, would the person here who has never once stormed off, contemplated secession or talked of ending Shireroth please raise their hand?

Nor do I feel this necessary all we need do is 1) stop automatically welcoming back former citizens, no matter how disruptive there were and without considering the circumstances of their departure and 2) block non-citizens from joining debates on the future of this country.

To be clear, I'm not saying that we should ban former citizens from returning...but sometimes it does feel like our immigration office is fitted with a revolving door and I think people need to take more responsibility for their decision to renounce their citizenship. And just for the record...this isn't directed at anyone in particular; it's simply an observation.

One final point...I really, really, really believe that Shireroth needs to grow up and ditch its superiority complex. While we may be the oldest in the sector, we're no longer unquestionably the largest, or the strongest and we're certainly not the "best"- whatever that means. National pride is one thing but it does seem like Shireroth has come to believe its own propaganda and this in turn is hindering any attempt to have a balanced assessment of our situation.

Above all, Shireroth is not unkillable and a Micras without it isn't unthinkable. That sort of complacency is very unhelpful!

[Kaltor Win'Eth]

This is probably not going to be a popular idea...but perhaps the answer, at least in the short term, is a "two speed" Shireroth? Some people want there to be much greater centralisation and others, while happy to be within the Shireroth, prefer a more sedate pace of life. I really don't see why we can't make room for both, with a little give-and-take.

Understandable, but why shouldn't we just introduce residency for those who are inactive? Residents could keep their title and land, but simply wouldn't have direct access to the Landsraad (I don't think inactive people should really have a place in politics). Once they become active again and request it, they get all citizenship privileges back.

How would that "two speed" Shireroth go in its work? Certain States / Counties who can chose to be more intertwined with the imperial government?

I think we should try to come up with a list of goals, although I think we should try to avoid making them rules. Shireroth already has a lot of rules; trouble is, people are better at sticking to the letter than the spirit.

Indeed. A nation and a group of people who follow certain principles have more chance to cooperating well than a nation with a lot of rules.

Nor do I feel this necessary all we need do is 1) stop automatically welcoming back former citizens, no matter how disruptive there were and without considering the circumstances of their departure and 2) block non-citizens from joining debates on the future of this country.

To be clear, I'm not saying that we should ban former citizens from returning...but sometimes it does feel like our immigration office is fitted with a revolving door and I think people need to take more responsibility for their decision to renounce their citizenship. And just for the record...this isn't directed at anyone in particular; it's simply an observation.

No, I understand and I fully agree with you. Who says that I don't have bad intentions?

One final point...I really, really, really believe that Shireroth needs to grow up and ditch its superiority complex. While we may be the oldest in the sector, we're no longer unquestionably the largest, or the strongest and we're certainly not the "best"- whatever that means. National pride is one thing but it does seem like Shireroth has come to believe its own propaganda and this in turn is hindering any attempt to have a balanced assessment of our situation.

Above all, Shireroth is not unkillable and a Micras without it isn't unthinkable. That sort of complacency is very unhelpful!

I did not really hear much about Shireroth is the best (more the opposite).

[Hallbjorn]

One final point...I really, really, really believe that Shireroth needs to grow up and ditch its superiority complex. While we may be the oldest in the sector, we're no longer unquestionably the largest, or the strongest and we're certainly not the "best"- whatever that means. National pride is one thing but it does seem like Shireroth has come to believe its own propaganda and this in turn is hindering any attempt to have a balanced assessment of our situation.

Flanders is the oldest nation of the sector for it pre-dates Shireroth by three years. It is, however, not the eldest country on the MCS map, which is Shireroth.

[Kaltor Win'Eth]

One final point...I really, really, really believe that Shireroth needs to grow up and ditch its superiority complex. While we may be the oldest in the sector, we're no longer unquestionably the largest, or the strongest and we're certainly not the "best"- whatever that means. National pride is one thing but it does seem like Shireroth has come to believe its own propaganda and this in turn is hindering any attempt to have a balanced assessment of our situation.

Flanders is the oldest nation of the sector for it pre-dates Shireroth by three years. It is, however, not the eldest country on the MCS map, which is Shireroth.

It's also the most boring nation on the map. So we better not strife to be first in everything.