A Shirerithian Heraldry

[ConglacioII]

Ok, so…there was talk of making a Shirerithian heraldic system, right? Well, I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about it, and I’m now ready to present my ideas.
There are a number of things that the system should take in to account, such as:

• One ‘player’, multiple characters (A person’s characters should be recognisable as theirs)
• The need to show both feudal and government status (It should be easy to tell a Count from a Duke, and to recognise an Imperial Minister)
• People change who and what they are a lot, so their history should be visible
• We mostly work on forums, not jousting tilt-yards

I’m using the arms of one of my characters (Conglacio II Swefhert) as an example case. These are only sketches, made mostly with Wikipedia clipart, but hopefully you get the idea…



Here is the basic part, the bit that is common to all characters for a person. A simple design of no more than 3 colours or elements. Mine is a red triangly thing on a silver background.
It’s not on a shield shape, instead it’s on a cloth. IC, This represents the banners draped over seats in the landraad to identiy people. OOC, it’s a more convenient shape to make avatars with.


Arms are usually done over a family, so the player’s insignia is modified for each family of characters. My ‘Burgsdrumfort’ family (Conglacio II, Ignatia etc.) has a heron in a fort as their symbol (see the thread on such things in Erior) and this is both on the family Cloth and the Crest. The Crest is also used to make the family Badge (a Torse-like circle of coloured fabric with the crest’s symbol drawn inside). The badge is used for none-noble members of the family and for seals.


This is the family’s Cloth, with the character’s personal symbol and fief’s badge draped over. In this case, Conglacio Swefhert has the symbol of a dead heart and the badge of Erior. Ignatia has the two items on separate, smaller drapes, nearer to the centre of the Cloth. The draps can be put wherever is convenient.
It is this view that would be most likely used for people’s forum avatars.


Here we see the full Cloth of a character of normal status. This is Conglacio’s Cloth from before he became the Minister of Immigration. It show’s the Family Cloth, his symbols and fief, and a Count’s coronet. The Coronet show’s the symbol of Kildare, to show that he is a Count in the Imperial State of Kildare.

This is the Cloth of Conglacio as it currently stands, and is an example of someone who has higher status in the Imperial Republic.
The main difference with this is that the Capes worn by Dukes and Ministers when attending Court are shown. The cape is in the colours of the Cloth. Having a Cape allows a person to show the Badges of territories that they (or their ancestors) used to hold (in black and white) as well as any additional lands. A Kaiser would have a full cape.
Conglacio II got his Imperial status through being a Minister. This is shown by having hands holding symbols of office. One hand holds the Key of the Immigration ministry. The other shows the shield of the Goldenbrook Under-Moose of Arms. The Kaiser would have armoured hands holding the Sword of Vengance, etc. Ignatia. Dutchess of Kildare, has no hands on her capes, as she's not a minister, and instead has the shield of Kildare on both sides.

[ConglacioII]

The shields and Badges of the lands should also show their status.
County: simple circle
Group of Counties (eg. Barony): chained oval
Protectorate: Corded Oval
Imperial State (with a noble sounding title): large circle
Imperial State (with a non-noble sounding title): Flag

[ConglacioII]

County: simple coronet with symbol of the Imperial State it's in
Group of Counties (eg. Barony): As County, but with a chain
Duchy/Kingdom/etc.: As County, but with lots of fancy stuff
Federation: Ermine cap
Then the following to show status:
Protectorate: Cord around the crown
Imperial State: Blue filling
Lesser sovereignty: White filling
So, Musica would have an ermin cap filled with blue, while Safira would have a fancy crown with cord wrapped around it and a white filling.

[Mira Raynora Minor]

Heraldic purist though I am, I love the ideas here! I particularly appreciate the way the square cloth fits our requirements- for forum avatars- instead of mindlessly using the traditional shield; it's all too easy to forget that classical heraldry once served a very necessary function and this change makes the system feel much more relevant.

My only suggestions at this stage concern details. I would, for example, argue against using the torse (wreath) with the coronets, as the result looks rather cumbersome: better to keep the torse for untitled members of the family.

I would also allow a little more leeway regarding the exact marshalling, in order to deal with the specific needs of individuals. For example, as all of my personas are members of the ubiquitous Rossheim dynasty (indeed "Rossheim" is my current moniker), I generally distinguish the various branches and individuals by combining the white horse on purple dynastic arms with those of another family or territory. Conversely, the various individuals generally don't have their own personal badges, preferring to let their dominions speak for them!

I also intend to retain the distinctive royal crown of Lichbrook I designed, which combines the leaves of a duke's coronet (I've used Strawberry leaves as is the practice in Britain, but I could just as well use the Acanthus leaves employed elsewhere) with the closed arches denoting sovereignty:



With a little work, I can modify this to have the blue cap of an imperial state.

At any rate though...really excellent work!

[ConglacioII]

Heraldic purist though I am

I figure we should start our own purism!

I love the ideas here! I particularly appreciate the way the square cloth fits our requirements- for forum avatars- instead of mindlessly using the traditional shield; it's all too easy to forget that classical heraldry once served a very necessary function and this change makes the system feel much more relevant.

I'm glad that what I was going for can be seen.

argue against using the torse (wreath) with the coronets, as the result looks rather cumbersome: better to keep the torse for untitled members of the family.

Sounds good to me.

I would also allow a little more leeway regarding the exact marshalling, in order to deal with the specific needs of individuals. For example, as all of my personas are members of the ubiquitous Rossheim dynasty (indeed "Rossheim" is my current moniker), I generally distinguish the various branches and individuals by combining the white horse on purple dynastic arms with those of another family or territory. Conversely, the various individuals generally don't have their own personal badges, preferring to let their dominions speak for them!

I think that's fine. Leave it as an option for each applicant: Use Badges on a dynastic Cloth, or use a combined dynastic+land+whatever cloth. I think as long as the 'player' is recognisable, the intend is still retained. Indeed, if I ever tried to revive Peartree-Negril, I'd likely marshal that in to mine.

I also intend to retain the distinctive royal crown of Lichbrook I designed, which combines the leaves of a duke's coronet (I've used Strawberry leaves as is the practice in Britain, but I could just as well use the Acanthus leaves employed elsewhere) with the closed arches denoting sovereignty:

Well, I figure that anything above a Barony could have a crown that's as fancy as they like. Only Counties and Baronies are fixed at a simple circlet/circlet with chain. (within each Imperial State, the Count's coronet may have a specific design anyway)

So...change the red cap to a blue one and it straight away fits.

I presume that, in this system, the Skull would be the crest, with the crowns on top, instead of below. I think that people who've been here a long time, or who have made major contributions to the Imperial Republic would have more lee-way to have exceptions from the norm.

[Krasniy Yastreb]

Wow, some work has gone into this. Like actual proper work

One ‘player’, multiple characters (A person’s characters should be recognisable as theirs)

I cannot emphasise the awesomeness of this idea enough. Even with the character registry I've had a hard time tagging together everyone's alts since I came back.

I also like the way it's not just a rigid appropriation of British/European heraldic dogma as so often happens in micronations. It's home grown and all the better for it.

[Shyriath]

*Nods general approval, although he lacks sufficient brain at this hour to come up with meaningful comments.*

[Scott Alexander]

I like this.

What is the significance of the difference between an Imperial State [Duchy] and an Imperial State [Federation]?

Also, I have to say Conglacio's personal crest reminds me of @godkingbird

[ConglacioII]

I like this.

What is the significance of the difference between an Imperial State [Duchy] and an Imperial State [Federation]?

Also, I have to say Conglacio's personal crest reminds me of @godkingbird

Well, Musica has the style of a political union rather then the feudal style of the traditional duchies. I figure that should be shown somehow. So...democracies, republics and the like would have that style if they became Imperial States.

[Mira Raynora Minor]

I think the distinction between duchies and non-monarchical states is nifty and worth keeping: monarchies have oval "shields" whilst non-monarchies have rectangular "flags". It's worth pointing out however that Musica isn't actually an Imperial State in its own right: it's a federation of two Imperial States- Lichbrook & Modany and Yardistan- and their condominions.

Well, I figure that anything above a Barony could have a crown that's as fancy as they like. Only Counties and Baronies are fixed at a simple circlet/circlet with chain. (within each Imperial State, the Count's coronet may have a specific design anyway)

I really like the baronial coronet, with the chain denoting linked counties. That too is a pretty damned nifty idea, tof he sort you secretly wish had foccurred to you first!

I presume that, in this system, the Skull would be the crest, with the crowns on top, instead of below.

To be honest, I don't think the Rossheimers have ever used a crest as such- the crowned skull device is a badge associated with the territories of Lichbrook (a silver skull) and Leichenberg (a golden skull) rather than a family crest. The Maltenstein branch would probably use a white demi-horse issuing from a black tower (representing Maltenstein Fortress), perhaps with the horse holding a small Shirerithian flag (to illustrate their claim to represent the line of Raynor). The Sangunese-Leichenbergish branch would either use a white demi-horse without further adornment (as the senior line of the family), or a ghostly female figure with hair covering the face (representing a mara or onryo).

[Vilhelm Benkern]

An excellent surprise to come back to! Really splendid work. I can't add much to the discussion on the work so far, besides the fact that I agree that character-based is an inspired an appropriate approach and that republican/monarchical is a useful distinction.

I presume that, in this system, the Skull would be the crest, with the crowns on top, instead of below. I think that people who've been here a long time, or who have made major contributions to the Imperial Republic would have more lee-way to have exceptions from the norm.

Yes, yes, yes. We should look as far as possible to fit existing heraldic symbols and styles into this new system, mainly so that it sticks and no-one is tempted to revert to their way of doing things because it's easier. This nifty project has been a long-time coming and I'm glad it's finally got going.

[Krasniy Yastreb]

So I had a little dick around making my own cloth under this system and here's how it came out:



*Basis is red and blue (never mind this Gules & Azure bullsh*t ) as the signature colours of Goldshire, Brookshire and the Shirerithian heartlands in general

*Badge and crest is a hawk displayed (ястреб, yastreb)

* The crest features a count's coronet within Goldshire

* The drape has a red hawk (красный ястреб, krasniy yastreb), followed by the County seal of Lunaris (minus the evening primrose round the edge which may cause confusion with this system). I've taken the liberty of adding the medal of a Knight Comrade of the OMI at the end, as it looked like a good place to put orders/awards

* Done away with the torse as per Her Niftiness' suggestion

All in all, I'm pretty pleased with it.

[Soreaa Isurui]

A beautiful idea and concept!

Although if an imperial state has another system of heraldry, it must, for the sake of its sovereignty, be able to use that system instead of the imperial-sanctioned one.

I propose therefore that the Conglacian style be used:

for the Kaiser
for the Landsraad, the Praetor, etc
for the Imperial Judex and the arbiter(s)
for the Ministries and Ministers
for Shirerithian embassies and ambassadors
for the Kaiser's high commissions in the imperial states (high commission would be like a representative office)
for organizations and companies originally chartered by imperial law

[Krasniy Yastreb]

I don't think there was much question of forcing the Conglacian style outside of the Imperial level institutions you mentioned. Ideally there'd be a degree of harmony between the Imperial and subdivisional heraldry that doesn't compromise either, and while not identical would at least be mutually intelligible.

[Rei Milharna]

Can I get an SVG of the coronets?

[Shyriath]

Can I get an SVG of the coronets?

I'd like to add my name to that waiting list as well.

[Rei Milharna]

Imaia Vauqi



The crest is a shield (vauqi), and in this case it's seafoam-colored (vauqi imaia). The winged sword is the emblem of the Master of the Imperial Handmaidens, and the seafoam bar defacing it is a cadency mark, as Imaia is the second Vauqi to hold such an office, after her great-great-great-grandmother in the time of the First Empire. The circular crest below that is of the state of Aňira, and on the count's coronet in silver it represents a member of the Safirian Government.

Rei Miľarna



The crest is the erased upper body of a miľarna, a legendary creature said to be a furred dragon with a hawk's beak and angel's wings, and the crossed katana above it show that Rei is the first daughter of the first daughter of the line's progenitrix, the legendary warrior Íviþai. Rei's personal symbol is the star of Vergina, and the orange seal below that is of the state of Maľena, of which she is governor. The coat of arms differenced with a golden bar mark that Rei is a former Safir Empress. (The family's crest is also depicted in the logo of the family's private security and asset management firms.)

[ConglacioII]

I'm glad to see people experimenting with the system!

I think though that before we get carried away, we need a registry of people's basic cloths. One of family crests will also be needed, but is not a priority.

In terms of local systems, this is not to force a state to use any system, but rather, this is what the government would use and what most people would come to understand. No one would be kicked out of the Landsraad for putting an odd cloth on their seat, but they would be encouraged to get a version that fits the rest of the country when travelling.

[Mira Raynora Minor]

It's worth pointing out that a really well-designed piece of heraldry can be depicted in a variety of styles: the basic rules of good design are surprisingly universal. So, with a little work, it should be possible to adapt heraldry to fit traditional, national and local systems.

Can I get an SVG of the coronets?

It might be a good idea if we can build up an SVG "archive" of key elements such as the cape, side drape etc. That would make it much easier for people to create their own arms using the standardised system.

[ConglacioII]

I'll get a bank of them sorted soon. (though I would like it if I (well, my company, Orphio Cartology) could get a little subsidy please? )