Imperial Charter: Draft 1

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Hadrian Myksos
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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by Hadrian Myksos »

Ryker wrote:Oh yeah, wasn't Erik President or something?
Yep (at least according to the historical documents the Melangian historians shoved into my face :wink: ).
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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by HIM Lina VII »

Orion wrote:
HIM Lina VII wrote:There should indeed exist provisions to remove an incompetent Kaiser. But the main feature of a monarchy — and Shireroth is indeed one of those — is that the main and supreme power is vested in the monarch.
Since when is this the Kingdom of Shireroth? Last I knew the official title was Imperial Republic of Shireroth. We are not a cookie-cutter monarchy, we are a hybrid of autocracy and democracy. I hate to break your bubble, but Shireroth began as a republic, and it will always be so at its core. The Kaisership came about in response to a protracted bout of inactivity that crippled the bureaucratic republican government. Since then we have worked to create a balanced system where the executive can retain absolute authority if necessary. A non-participatory absolutist state is no fun for anyone, and certainly not what Shireroth needs.
From the earliest known records to March 2013, the first eight words of the Charter were “The Kaiser of Shireroth is the supreme ruler”. Just because North Korea calls itself a Democratic People's Republic doesn't mean that it's democratic, popular, or a republic; the same principle applies to all countries.
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Ryker
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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by Ryker »

We don't act like a kingdom and so we are not a kingdom. Like you said: North Korea says it's a democratic republic (but it isn't). The same applies to you, Carl, saying that Shireroth is a traditional monarchy (but it isn't). You see where we're coming from? The Charter can preach whatever it likes about what the Kaiser is but that doesn't mean it is automatically in practice.

Edit: please help us understand how you think absolute monarchy would benefit us Shirerothians (the majority of which are all openly against such a transition).
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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by Orion »

HIM Lina VII wrote:
Orion wrote:
HIM Lina VII wrote:There should indeed exist provisions to remove an incompetent Kaiser. But the main feature of a monarchy — and Shireroth is indeed one of those — is that the main and supreme power is vested in the monarch.
Since when is this the Kingdom of Shireroth? Last I knew the official title was Imperial Republic of Shireroth. We are not a cookie-cutter monarchy, we are a hybrid of autocracy and democracy. I hate to break your bubble, but Shireroth began as a republic, and it will always be so at its core. The Kaisership came about in response to a protracted bout of inactivity that crippled the bureaucratic republican government. Since then we have worked to create a balanced system where the executive can retain absolute authority if necessary. A non-participatory absolutist state is no fun for anyone, and certainly not what Shireroth needs.
From the earliest known records to March 2013, the first eight words of the Charter were “The Kaiser of Shireroth is the supreme ruler”. Just because North Korea calls itself a Democratic People's Republic doesn't mean that it's democratic, popular, or a republic; the same principle applies to all countries.

What exactly are you calling "earliest records" here? I'm talking back around 2002.

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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by HIM Lina VII »

The earliest copy of the Charter archived in the ShireWiki dates back to August 19, 2005.
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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by Ryker »

If we get Scott over here real quick we might even get some earlier ones.
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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by Orion »

Shireroth hopped around as a province of Audentior, Tymaria and several other nations before finally becoming independent as a republic. A lot of this was before the MCS was around. By 2005 we had moved from having a President to a Kaiser because Erik "thought it sounded cool". So anyways, yes, the earliest charter is a couple years after the republican period.

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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by Verion »

Carl, if you want more power for the Kaiser, why don't you propose some small changes that people can support instead of shouting for complete overheal of the Landsraad, which won't happen any time soon.
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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by Malliki Nur Pinito »

The Kaiser is given more power in the new Charter, but it is balanced power. I don't want the Kaiser to be an autocrat, but I also don't want him to be powerless during the summer slump, for example.
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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by Vilhelm Benkern »

The important question has been brought up of the balance of power between the federal executive and legislature and I don't mean to interfere with that. But if I may return to the specific question of secession and the role the Kaiser has to play:
Malliki Nur Pinito wrote:I don't see such a problem actually. If the language we put in the Charter is unambiguous, as it should be, then the Kaiser is simply performing zir duties when presenting a secession application, nothing more or less.
Mira Raynora Major wrote:Maybe, but I also don't see the point of having the Kaiser do it: if the people of a state wish to secede, they should make their case to the rest of Shireroth themselves. Yes, the Kaiser should be informed beforehand, both as a courtesy and to give the Imperial Government fair warning to prepare, and if zie disagrees then zie should have the right to present a counterargument, either refuting or (hopefully) addressing the concerns that provoked the desire for independence in the first place.
I do see the point of the Kaiser bringing the matter to the Landsraad - as I've said above, it gives the Imperial government as a government a chance to form a view. They may support secession or oppose it. The Imperial authorities represent the collective will of Shireroth, and while the subdivision intending to secede may not accept that it is doing it will, it should do according to the spirit of federal government. I support Malliki's view quoted above that the Kaiser would be performing a more mechanical function, there is no intention for zie to have the power to obfuscate the secession process.

How would you implement the requirement of the Kaiser being informed beforehand?
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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by Ryker »

Concerning the power of the Kaiser: how about we go about it in a bit less orthodox of fashion? What if, for one whole week, we see just how great or awful or unchanged Shireroth is with a total monarchy. Our current Kaiser is smart enough to see a timely end to the experiment and it would be a hell of a lot more efficient and effective than bickering about the topic for months (or has it already been years?).

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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by HIH Prince Daniel »

I have no qualms about implementing such an experiment.
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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by Ryker »

Well of course you don't. You probably just soiled yourself out of excitement :joker:
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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by HIH Prince Daniel »

False. :P
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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by Malliki Nur Pinito »

What is a "total monarchy"?
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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by Mira Raynora Major »

Vilhelm Benkern wrote:The Imperial authorities represent the collective will of Shireroth
No, they don't. The Imperial authorities- in theory at least- are there to execute that collective will, but all too often the Imperial Government doesn't listen to the rest of the country. The Landsraad represents the collective will because that is where everyone involved has a say.

And that brings us back to why an absolutist system simply won't work: unlike in the real world, a micronation can only be governed by consent.

Think about it. Absolutist systems survive due to a combination of coercion and lack of mobility. For many people, uprooting themselves and their families and moving to another country isn't a viable option unless things get so bad that they're prepared to camp out in a tent living on handouts. A lot of people in the UK aren't happy with our leaders but for the vast majority, that discontent isn't enough to cause them to leave.

None of that applies in our little world. For a start, there is no effective means of coercion short of deleting a person's account and banning them. More importantly, if a person isn't happy with things, then they can usually find a new country or project with a few clicks of a mouse. Therefore, the "tolerance threshold" of a micronational citizen is significantly lower than that of his/her macronational counterpart.

People are here because they choose to be. I tend to feel that successful countries like Shireroth often take the commitment of their citizens for granted, when actually it si something remarkable. For fifteen odd years, people have bought into the idea of Shireroth, often putting up with a lot of a crap: we focus on the occasions when people snap and either ragequit or secede, instead of all those times when loyalty to Shireroth overcomes any personal misgivings.
How would you implement the requirement of the Kaiser being informed beforehand?
A mandatory period of notice.

Step 1: A state holds a referendum of active residents on the question of independence.

Step 2: If a majority are in favour of independence, the state's leader informs the Kaiser.

Step 3: After a mandatory period of three ASC years, the state presents a request for independence to the Landsraad.

Step 4: The Imperial Government then presents its response before the Landsraad.

That's roughly how I'd do it. The notice period is a perfect opportunity for both Imperial Government and State Government to prepare their arguments. I would anticipate that in most cases, the Imperial Government would be against secession, so in that case the process would take the form of a debate before the Landsraad decides.

If the Imperial Government decides to support the independence bid, then that would suggest that either secession enjoys the support of most Shirerithians, or the Imperial Government is utterely out of touch (or even corrupt)- in which case the Landsraad would likely shoot it down (and then if they have any sense, oust the Kaiser).

Overall though, I do think that's a fairer way of handling things, while still giving the Imperial Government a central role.
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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by Ryker »

Malliki Nur Pinito wrote:What is a "total monarchy"?
I think I meant Absolute.
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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by Malliki Nur Pinito »

Been there, done that. I see no point in going back to a system that we abandoned for not being good enough.
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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by Ryker »

This would just be one week to show everyone why we changed systems.
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Re: Imperial Charter: Draft 1

Post by Kaiser Ayreon III »

I really don't understand why we should implement this trial, what it would prove, or even how to implement it...
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