Calling a meeting of the Great Kehl

[Mira Raynora Major]

Things have been rather quiet here for some time now and I sense a need to shake things up a little. Unfortunately I am likely to be quite busy in the coming week, but when my schedule clears I would like to summon all active and interested inhabitants of the realm to an extraordinary meeting of the Great Kehl (Lichbrook's traditional assembly of notables, for those unfamiliar) so that we can discuss some fresh ideas.

[Nostalgia]

Umm... I don't know if I have to post it or not, but ... well, I'm one of those inhabitants.

[Shyriath]

Just let me know when, and I shall be the Incarnates shall be there.

[Shyriath]

...no?

[Mira Raynora Major]

Right then, everybody!

Firstly, sincere apologies for the delay. Secondly, I'm not going to try and approach this "in sim" or "in character" as that will only get in the way of the honest and open discussion we need.

The problem is clear: Lichbrook isn't going anywhere. I'm not around and the rest of you are constrained by my absence. With this in mind, I want to start instead with a question: is there anyone here who's actually interested in the concept of Lichbrook? By that I mean someone who likes the notion of a state ruled by wacky undead people.

Lichbrook was always my "thing" and I have been rather possessive of it..although in my defence, I always doubted that anyone else would be genuinely interested in my rather bizarre vision. So maybe it's time to wind it up and let someone else have a go at something fresh? Or downsize Lichbrook, preserving a smaller rump as a cultural legacy, leaving the rest free for new ideas?

Does anyone here have any fresh ideas they'd like to try?

[Nostalgia]

Nooo... I mean, thank you for introducing this. I agree it's good to have a discussion, open and honest one as you said. I quite like Lichbrook to be honest - it is different, it has a rich history, it has nice graphical creations So please please do not tear it off. It is perfectly understandable that everyone has their own life and issues and things have been slow, but I am sure we can work it out and bring things back to life (or undead ) If you would entrust me with a bit influence outside of Amarr, I promise to give it a go and do as much as I can. Or any other thing I could help with! Again, for the reasons I've indicated it will be a pity to ruin everything.

[Kaiser Dominus]

If no one objects, I'm going to loiter as an interested party. I may pitch in an occasional comment - but this is your show chaps.

[Mira Raynora Major]

That's certainly something I'd consider, Nostalgia. However...I'd like to see some fresh ideas too!

There's a tendency in this hobby (I'm far from immune to it myself) to let the acquisition of power and pixels become one's main focus. It's nice to have a decent blob of territory to develop, but it can become a weight around your neck too! In many ways, I was happier with less but once you've gone big, it's hard to go back. Bit like losing weight...

Returning to the subject, I'm quite curious now to hear what sort of ideas you have in mind. If I had a better idea of what people here actually wanted...it would help me to accommodate them!

[Mira Raynora Major]

If no one objects, I'm going to loiter as an interested party. I may pitch in an occasional comment - but this is your show chaps.

Feel free!

[Nostalgia]

Actually, I agree and am not opposed to a reduction if that would help. I think the other two states have been more active mainly because they keep going. And things would be hard at the beginning until we achieve this. Very hard.

I'd suggest a reform in which we all come up with a single Royal House. Perhaps descending from Mira? (or whatever, details can be discuessed) Then people may have their own territory (county) if they wished to, or just participate on a Lichbrook-wide level. But unlike other places, there will be one house and that's it. You may control your own character(s), but keep things united. No official branches (may seem radical, but to me having branches creates divisons and therefore communication less direct + virtually any other place has them). Indeed I was planning to involve the county in foreign matters (and curiously posted this in the morning, that Zakyyr and Li will meet there). I can also involve some of my other characters (gosh, am I competing with Ric on character count?) and I think others could do too.

Apart from re-organising those, I don't believe in reinventing fire. People may like or dislike this, but more or less throughout microntaions' existence we've seen what usually works and what does not. By being too strict we'd put constraints on people and future developments. By contrast, providing continuity tends to keep people happy and feel involved, even if they have not been able to contribute for a while.

[Mira Raynora Major]

I think the other two states have been more active mainly because they keep going.

It's easy to enter panic mode at a time like this, but a more sober-headed assessment will reveal that both Elwynn and Goldshire have had their share of existential crises in the last few years. It happens. Things get stale, key people leave or get dragged away...then there is a crisis and usually something new happens. The more I think about it, the more I believe this is the way of the hobby and should be celebrated rather than feared.

I'd suggest a reform in which we all come up with a single Royal House. Perhaps descending from Mira? (or whatever, details can be discuessed)

That's an intriguing idea I'd like to explore a little further. Are you envisioning a local version of Elwynn's ubiquitous royal family? Also, which Mira do you mean? There are at least four significant people of that name in our region's history!

The main weakness of the Rosshim family is that it's basically all me...which gets boring. The nature of unlife also tends towards stability...which also gets boring.I didn't really have a plan when I began all this, but if I could have the time again, I would be curious to explore the notion of progressive subdivision on a more explicit basis. The nature of Lichbrook's society, where a lich of the royal family must be bound to their own territory, does encourage a rather Germanic process of territorial fragmentation that could become interesting.

My efforts to explore this have so far been hampered by the fact that I play almost all of the liches, which robs the process of much of the fun. Maybe it's time for a reset?

[Nostalgia]

That's an intriguing idea I'd like to explore a little further. Are you envisioning a local version of Elwynn's ubiquitous royal family? Also, which Mira do you mean? There are at least four significant people of that name in our region's history!

Thanks. I do not see this is a copy of Elwynn's family. There they have mixed up everything (not blaming you guys, it is quite a good and unique thing!) and have "branches" of the family that each person controls. But as I suggested, things in Lichbrook will be different. The Sovereign (King/Queen) will be the head of the house (as per usual) and her descendants will be controlled by different people. But one will still be in charge of particular individuals, rather than sub-family formations. To make this relevant, the Sovereign will be granting different rights/responsibilities to her descendants (in all ways you can think of).

I didn't specify a particular Mira, because I didn't want to put constraints. There are dozens of dozens of ways to introduce the dynasty - it may be after a war/revolution/murder, or me a peaceful change. Depends how we want it.

The main weakness of the Rosshim family is that it's basically all me...which gets boring.

Exactly! And that's the same in may places (and the same with my own set of characters).

The nature of unlife also tends towards stability...which also gets boring.I didn't really have a plan when I began all this

Now that is really a problem. While we may not want to change characters as quickly as Kaisers come and go, things should keep going and I absolutely agree with that. We can think of a mechanism to go down the family line. But not a central system - having one strict way to do this makes it boring. I suggest, from time to time, someone will be murdered/die tragically/go missing, etc. Or renounce his titles and therefore be excluded. But still, remain open to as many scenarios as possible, rather than just say its over after X ASC years.

My efforts to explore this have so far been hampered by the fact that I play almost all of the liches, which robs the process of much of the fun. Maybe it's time for a reset?

Yes. the real issue, I personally believe, is not the idea of liches, etc. It is quite a distinct and unique thing which I passionately believe should be preserved. We just tune it up (with those and other ideas).

Also, to get people motivated, decision-making may be changed. But that must NOT be in a form of a parliament - too boring, as you say. But that's not a priority for now - anyways, if we go for these changes, during that time things will be discussed and agreed OOC for the time being.

[Mira Raynora Major]

But as I suggested, things in Lichbrook will be different. The Sovereign (King/Queen) will be the head of the house (as per usual) and her descendants will be controlled by different people. But one will still be in charge of particular individuals, rather than sub-family formations. To make this relevant, the Sovereign will be granting different rights/responsibilities to her descendants (in all ways you can think of).

So the head of the royal house delegates specific responsibilities to individuals of the house, but those individuals don't go off and found their one distinct dynasty? I sort of see where you're coming from (I think), but it's going to take a strong leader to ensure those individuals don't try to set up their own rival sub-dynasties.

In practical terms, I'm not even certain the end result will be much different, although I may be missing the point.

Now that is really a problem. While we may not want to change characters as quickly as Kaisers come and go, things should keep going and I absolutely agree with that. We can think of a mechanism to go down the family line. But not a central system - having one strict way to do this makes it boring. I suggest, from time to time, someone will be murdered/die tragically/go missing, etc. Or renounce his titles and therefore be excluded. But still, remain open to as many scenarios as possible, rather than just say its over after X ASC years.

If rulers are dying/getting murdered routinely that would surely amount to a failure of the system of undead rule, though. I don't mean to appear critical of your ideas, because there are some good points there, but if you want to preserve Lichbrook as a concept, then we can twist it only so far before it simply doesn't make sense any longer.

To be honest with you, I now regret creating so many new liches in an effort to mix things up, or introducing the storylines in which a lich disappears only to later return. Now perhaps that is a reflection on the OOC problems of the IC structure I dreamed up, but if that is the case, it's probably wiser to change the structure.

Yes. the real issue, I personally believe, is not the idea of liches, etc. It is quite a distinct and unique thing which I passionately believe should be preserved. We just tune it up (with those and other ideas).

I'm just throwing out ideas here, but what if the focus was switched away from the liches themselves and on to mortal leaders governing on their behalf? That would allow us to introduce change more easily and though it would in one sense represent a retreat from the idea of undead rule, it can be justified- certainly for areas in which living citizens are in the majority.

[Kaiser Dominus]

Hello, quasi-benevolent Imperial Government here,

I personally like the idea of a revival of human participation in the government, perhaps via the Diregency of Musica, while Lichdom either consolidates, or goes into a form of occultation like the narrative Krasniy has been advancing in Minarboria, with the diminishing of Lich power. It would provide a narrative angle for the development of the counties by their new government in that the locals have to relearn how to govern for themselves. Not to say that it would be open season for departing from the previous culture, far from it, the period of Lich rule will have made an indelible mark on the psyche of the human population after all.

Failing that, I'd quite like to see Musica opened up again, either as an Imperial Dominion or as a 'free port/state' that doesn't have the walled garden thing going on like in the rest of Lichbrook.

(some words stolen from Octy for this post)

Octy's random ephemeral idea is for the Rossheim authority remain absolute in the Lichgraviate of Overdolor and that the person who holds that would remain the head of Lichbrook/Brookshire in name and with the ability to assert authority when they feel necessary.
it would give the state flexibility while retaining Rossheim's ability to protect his interests. For example, Mira would have the title "Lichgravine of Overdolor and Queen/Duchess of Lichbrook/Brookshire".

A separate breather would run the everyday government, like a prime minister, vizier, or steward, at the pleasure of the monarchy."

[Nostalgia]

First please accept my apologies for the block of text that is going to follow. Also, I like discussing things and by questioning ideas we get to developed them (as I did now).

The way I approach this is from detail to system, rather than the opposite. So we get the right thing that works from each 'area' and then contribute it to an overall way of doing things. And I'll discuss things in that fashion. Also, I am not aiming to create a perfect system - one size does not fit all. If we analyse things a bit, we'll see that the vast majority of us have many characters and usually in more than one country/state. That's because in each approach there are pros and cons, we enjoy the pros of one and then limit its cons by having fun in another culture. E.g. you can't have 'democracy-like' system and absolute rule, or centralised ruling body and powerful local (individual) entities. You don't have to - that is why we have different countries. For example, Alexandria satisfied the need for more political parliament-based system. Natopia is more about different local 'demesnes' cooperating together. Elwynn is quite an absolute monarchy (especailly up until recently). I see Lichbrook's part as the one providing continuity (with a moderate pace of change). So let me approach this issue by issue.

On the singular House: at the beginning, there will be a (fairly) limited set of characters. Each of us who wants to give it a go in Lichbrook will have one and then we get going. Character creation decision-making will be exercised by everyone acting together. Because of this, I assume those will be mainly OOC-based discussions. As Shireroth (on an imperial level) gives us a rapid changing government, here we'll have more continuity. At the moment, we have 3-4 people with intentions to contribute and some of them have had characters for IRL years. Therefore, we won't have new characters on a daily basis. When there is a need, we'll introduce a story and make it happen. I hardly think this will occur more than once or twice per IRL year. (good enough to stipulate change, yet preserve the culture) As a result of all this, you won't come up with people popping up dozens of children and therefore running a sub-dynasty. It will be more of a common body.

On the undead and mortal: Unfortunately, I do think that delegating government to mortals will ruin Lichbrook. As time passes, in my view it will become nothing more than a oldfashioned, purely theoretical thing - much like religions in many micronations. That doesn't mean, however, that we can't rip apart Musica if we want and do this there, but on a Lichbrook-wide level I believe it is the wrong thing to do. After all - that's what Lichbrook is all about, that's its own thing!

[ari]

With this in mind, I want to start instead with a question: is there anyone here who's actually interested in the concept of Lichbrook? By that I mean someone who likes the notion of a state ruled by wacky undead people.

I still love you! Though I had to let myself in because I've apparently never felt a need to post here for years until now, despite being a citizen...

My demands (although they apparently just turn into random comments) for a refreshed Lichbrook, after reading a few old threads:

- No more characters named Mira. At least, no new ones. And see if some can be replaced with less confusingly named ones.
- The progression of blinged out skulls, however, is allowed to proceed.
- Someone please give me back my free time so I can go back and actually do the stuff I wanted to do for Caverden right (that includes at least doing things like not just posting first drafts)
- (That said, the fact hasn't changed that I hate writing now, so I guess I can't really promise to participate)
- Institutional design is probably the most irrelevant distraction that micronationalists insist on wasting their time with. The supposed rules that you design for how a legislature or whatever works pretty much don't make any difference compared to the overwhelming effect of whether there's chemistry between the participants.

[Mira Raynora Major]

On the singular House: at the beginning, there will be a (fairly) limited set of characters. Each of us who wants to give it a go in Lichbrook will have one and then we get going.

The first step is to determine who is serious about participating...we shouldn't base our plans on an unrealistic assessment of the level of interest. Big changes are usually accompanied by an initial flowering of support as hitherto unconnected people create characters- some motivated by curiosity and others by less wholesome goals. It rarely lasts however and all too often, a new project finds itself with a rapidly dwindling number of committed participants.

Failing that, I'd quite like to see Musica opened up again, either as an Imperial Dominion or as a 'free port/state' that doesn't have the walled garden thing going on like in the rest of Lichbrook.

Musica- that is to say the city and former county of Kralizec/Alexandretta- remains under the control of Benkern, as Diregent. He already has the authority to act fully autonomously and if he wishes to achieve a more independent role, then I won't oppose that. I would like for him to retain some say in Brookshire, however, as his is a worthy voice to include in the mix.

Octy's random ephemeral idea is for the Rossheim authority remain absolute in the Lichgraviate of Overdolor and that the person who holds that would remain the head of Lichbrook/Brookshire in name and with the ability to assert authority when they feel necessary.
it would give the state flexibility while retaining Rossheim's ability to protect his interests. For example, Mira would have the title "Lichgravine of Overdolor and Queen/Duchess of Lichbrook/Brookshire".

A separate breather would run the everyday government, like a prime minister, vizier, or steward, at the pleasure of the monarchy."

That's not a bad idea and I'm not averse to the idea of retaining Overdolor as a "legacy" area, a bit like Monty Crisco, Zy Rodun or Octy's Island (whose name I've temporarily forgotten). If anything, that would ensure Ari retains the opportunity of continuing with his themes, should he wish.

Having said that, at this point in time I'm not at all sure whether it's desirable for me to remain head of state. There is a strong argument for me handing over authority to someone like Nostalgia and sailing off into the sunset (or at least on a long break, with the opportunity of returning to Overdolor). I don't want to be another Erik, who keeps popping back to complain about the changes introduced by the new regime; that's not a healthy situation for anyone involved.

Hmm...

I don't want to rush to make far reaching decisions but at the same time some movement has to happen- and soon, as I'm operating from a brief window before my schedule goes crazy again. So here's a provisional idea:

1) I retain control of Overdolor (possibly shedding some of the northern areas along the river) and withdraw from the other Lichgraviates;

2) Day-to-day executive authority over the rest of Lichbrook is delegated to Nostalgia (representing the undead) and Benkern (representing the living);

3) The future direction of Lichbrook as a whole is hashed out in the Great Kehl. No need to rush this, so long as there is dialogue...I'd like to work out a way for Nostalgia to introduce some of her ideas.

4) Shyriath retains authority over Shimmerspring.

Or something like that. Thoughts?

[Nostalgia]

Hmm...

I don't want to rush to make far reaching decisions but at the same time some movement has to happen- and soon, as I'm operating from a brief window before my schedule goes crazy again. So here's a provisional idea:

1) I retain control of Overdolor (possibly shedding some of the northern areas along the river) and withdraw from the other Lichgraviates;

2) Day-to-day executive authority over the rest of Lichbrook is delegated to Nostalgia (representing the undead) and Benkern (representing the living);

3) The future direction of Lichbrook as a whole is hashed out in the Great Kehl. No need to rush this, so long as there is dialogue...I'd like to work out a way for Nostalgia to introduce some of her ideas.

4) Shyriath retains authority over Shimmerspring.

Or something like that. Thoughts?

This is a fine strategy. However, I have a little bit of a concern that a bit more has to be done before we delegate. My point is I fear that if this arrangement is implemented, we will hardly ever go to considering and going further with the other set of ideas - things will more or less stay the same, just me and Benkern will also do things. For example, once such powers are delegated, we will never go and implement the single Royal family plan, nor the character ideas - which as far as I see it are the more practical changes apart from the two of us participating on a Lichbrook-wide level. I do not want to rush things, but there are two points to bear in mind: 1) if we make a change, bring it to completion (rather than half-way through, because next time we'll need to do it all over again). 2) Try to consider the changes and implement them while you (Mira) are around and have the chance in terms of time to make them happen.

[Mira Raynora Major]

Try to consider the changes and implement them while you (Mira) are around and have the chance in terms of time to make them happen.

This isn't about me making things happen. This is about me making way so that others- people like you- can make them happen. I'm still not sure to what extent I'm going to remain an active part of Lichbrook; the goal here is to pass the torch onto new, fresh and hungry leaders who will introduce their own ideas.

We also have to accept that your "single royal family plan" might not appeal to other people interested in Lichbrook, in which case it's up to you to persuade them of its merits. Now I'm not rushing to hand over authority as soon as possible, so you don't have to worry about that, but I'm not promising to set everything up either.

That's why I'm trying to get a sense of what everyone here wants and indeed, who is interested.

Having said that, I'm not going to be around until Monday so you guys have a few days to talk amongst yourselves.

[ari]

I have questions!

One: What's The Incarnates' avatar, anyway?

Two: When was posting in Lichbrook closed off from regular users? Actually, I can check that from the admin log (turns out to have been Oct 31, 2015), but... okay, I wouldn't ask why wearing my admin hat, so let me take that off and put on my Lichbrookian citizen hat instead. What's up with not letting people post here?

(personally, the dynamic that I prefer is that if you have to close things off from outsiders, then, use an open forum and a secret forum. I'm not sure anymore what my opinion on secret forums *used* to be, so I might be flipflopping here, but... knowing the readership is small does seem to tend to make it easier to throw around half-baked ideas. Which is nice for collaboration and all that.)

Three: You guys aren't already planning to introduce more Miras, are you?