EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

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Octavius
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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Octavius »

1. I thought that's what the first level of reconnaissance would have been...
2. SONAR detects anything with a different density than the surrounding water. Hell, fishing trawlers sometimes use it (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SONAR#Fisheries). If the Kraken were to close on the NTS Jasonia and then follow it, it'd have to move, and would thus be detected. A large, moving object of different density to the rock and the water is going to make the SONAR Operators go "?".

Regardless, we really ought to have a Stealth modifier.
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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Gerk »

Ok, so, the idea is that its size would make it seen, but only while moving. However, Andreas specifically used a faster moving speed to get ahead of the ship and lie in wait. Therefore, the sonar would not detect it until it started coming up.

If you read the guide, it says that 'basic recon' is free. To me, that means any knowledge you could obtain from an enemy orbat, including what units are present, and how many resources are being spent, as well as the locations of any units within reason.
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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Bayen »

Oh, Gerk posted. Well, I think this might help a little, too:
Harvey wrote:Before anyone gets anywhere, I want it explained to me EXACTLY how everything autobalances in this system. Andreas kept talking about how that worked and that's supposed to be how magic and fantasy are balanced and how you can have units with extreme advantages (like the kraken) that don't break the simulation, but nobody has said anything about how this actually works. A very fast, powerful attack that cannot be defended against was launched against me - if there's not DRASTIC multiplier penalties to the damage this does (I'm thinking like -50% here, though I'll admit to being surprised and at a tactical disadvantage with my planes landed so it might even out in the end close to a neutral 100%), then this system has no hope whatsoever.

And now I totally understand the anti-magic faction's arguments. It's not magic is "bad." It's just that it's so easy to abuse. Like, Andreas's infantry that are immune to bullets. Are we really supposed to just accept this? Do they get like a -95% damage modifier on attacks for being invincible?

And damnit Andreas, it's the NTS Jasonia. It's the flagship of the First Fleet. Honestly I only brought it in to flavor my resources - I considered it largely untargettable, merely as a scene of backstory. This isn't something you just godmod kill at a whim. I would except that from Extreme. :/
I can't think of much defense against the Kraken attack ... but I don't see how that's different from him sending in 170 points of generic naval ships to blow up the carrier when it's defenseless. A Kraken is basically an all-around sea unit --- therefore its attack is completely *generic*. It's hard to get tactical bonuses for using a Kraken well in naval combat, because you can't play to its advantages. It HAS no advantages, because it's meant to crush everything in the water. If you can come with anything, really, to make his attack less effective, you've won the day, because he spends 300 points on his magic-and-kraken attack, but he deals less than 300 points of damage. Like Gerk said, you win the battle, even if you don't really do any damage. That's the idea of the system balance.

Also, for the bullet-proof mages, you just have to get a little creative. The obvious weakness Andreas put in was that slow-moving objects like swords can penetrate the field, but you can think up other ways. For example, concussive grenades inflict damage via shock waves, not piercing shrapnel; they can kill even if the mages have a force field around them. The bullet-proof-ness is a massive advantage, so you'd get extremely awesome tactical bonuses if you get around it.
Andreas the Wise wrote:The movement amounts Bayen suggested are too small for Micran recwars.

In the wars, we're used to, "land vehicles can move about 50 pixels on the MCS map per real time day, perhaps a hundred if you push them. Boats can move about five hundred pixels a day." 50 pixels for land vehicles ~500 km. 500 pixels ~5000 kilometres. (Remember that the map we're using for this war is double zoom - this is for the MCS map).

So the "drive" description works, but the "sail" description for the same length? If ships think they should be moving 500 km per day, it will take them forever to get anywhere.
I did look up movement speeds for ships and math'd it out to eight hours, but you can definitely just use "Fly" instead. Remember, movement is supposed to be strategic; you have to carefully consider where you deploy your forces so you don't have to waste 15% just getting to the battle in time.

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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Octavius »

Whoops. Thought there was a 1% or something for that. Turns out it that was Driving/Sailing in Movement.

Up or down on the Stealth, though. I still think it could be a good idea.
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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Bayen »

Ideally, Stealth is just part of tactics. If you successfully carry out a sneak attack, then you'd get a tactical bonus. It's fairly subjective to start, so instead of giving the judge a separate thing to worry about, it's probably easiest to leave it as-is, I think. If it turns out we really need a mechanic, though (e.g. massive stealth disputes start cropping up), we can definitely add one.

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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Octavius »

Well, I mean, we have difference measures of reconnaissance and speed. Levels of stealth doesn't sound unreasonable. I mean yes, it's also part of tactics, but lemme ask you this one...

What's the difference between an F-35 with its weapons stowed in the internal weapons bays and its weapons stowed on the wings?
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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Bayen »

I honestly have no idea. Probably it's good against some things and bad against others. If you think it might be unclear to people (like me) what that means, you can put in your OrBat that your internal weapons mean "good against X, bad against Y." That, of course, will grant you tactical bonuses when fighting X and penalties fighting Y. If X or Y is a large class (such as "things that fire bullets"), the bonus/penalty won't be particularly high, whereas if it's quite specific ("weak against silvered weapons"), then you get a great big bonus/penalty in that narrow situation.

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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Octavius »

An F-35 with its weapons stowed internally has the RADAR profile of a small bird. An F-35 with its weapons stowed externally has a RADAR profile the size of the average private plane. That's the difference stealth can do. It can make something using it nigh-invisible to normal detection methods.

Putting that in an Orbat, or simply describing it in a recwar post will more likely get cries of godmodding. Having a stealth modifier would put a fixed, measurable cost to using it.
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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Harvey »

It seems all abilities are completely free, and abusing them is called tactics. I'm jaded and worried and it's only day one. I should have specified that all my forces have armor x5 harder than steel, are magically immune, can attack any point on the map with long-range weaponry, and are invisible. Man I'll bet I would have gotten a huge bonus for such creative use of tactics!

I want an official ruling on if Andreas's ac hocing the Kraken's movement is legal.

I also want an official explination as to why Fides didn't suffer a modifier penalty for being able to lob a fireball that far without needing to aim or move. I realize you gave him a -20%, but that was for different reasons. The whole post was sorta lazy, which may have been what he was going for, but that should still cost him.

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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Gerk »

First, to address the stealth modifier: What you're essentially wanting is a way to spend some more resource points in order to gain a stealth advantage that will give a bigger benefit to you in the battle, yes? Well, I have to ask, how is that any different from just spending extra points on the attack and therefore increasing the base value of damage done? Can't we just look at it as if, when stealth is involved, that part of the resources spent on the attack is used to pay for the stealth, and therefore does an equivalent amount of damage to the enemy? Why do we need to complicate things?

If you're going to use stealth bombers against an enemy, you're most likely not going to get any better than a 100% damage ratio, because you're using them exactly how they're designed to be used. You spend this many resources, and it does this much damage. So the balance is inherent. Now, if you use non-stealth bombers, but finagle a way to get them in and out without being detected or injured, that would be awarded with a large tactical bonus, because they're NOT supposed to be able to do that. However, using them unwisely, or having an enemy who is able to capitalize on their weaknesses is not going to pay out well for you, so there is a catch.

Abilities might be free, but they have to be reasonable. You can't say that your forces have armor x5 harder than steel, can attack anywhere, or whatever nonsense, because that's not realistic. And using abilities the way they are supposed to be used is not tactics; using abilities in creative, new ways, or finding ways to exploit weakness is tactics.

Andreas's movement of the Kraken, the way I see it, is legal. He just had it move a bit faster than average (if you notice, he only went a bit above the previous level), which could easily be explained by the Kraken working a bit harder, which would tire it out and cost the necessary resources, or giving it some kind of magical boost.

THERE ARE NO MODIFIER PENALTIES. Your troops are limited only in what they can do by the the abilities they have. Fides is a powerful mage in this scenario, so therefore has the ability to throw a giant ball of fire a long distance. You could say the same thing about a missile launcher. It's designed to fire things across a large distance, so therefore can, and doesn't incur a penalty. Of course, hurtling a giant fireball is boring, uncreative, and exactly what one would expect a powerful mage to do, so gains little tactical advantage.
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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Harvey »

I see.

I feel like a fool for promoting this system and doing this Examplestan stuff. It was obviously not meant for me.

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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Octavius »

Stealth isn't the same as attack, though. It's almost an anti-recon, since it prevents easy identification of a unit's location as it's performing an action.
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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Gerk »

But you wouldn't reasonably be able to determine the location of a stealth submarine or bomber using 'basic recon.' So it's already guaranteed that your opponent will have to pay some resource points to determine its location if he wants to.
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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Octavius »

A modern submarine can be pretty noisy if it wanted to. It just happens to move stealthfully during normal operations.
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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Harvey »

The problem with the stealth thing is that Andreas wants the best of both worlds - he wants a totally undetected approach to catch my planes on the carrier for a bonus AND he wants a full attack with the Kraken and a lot of damage. If you said that stealth should be largely ignored and just have those points as damage points, then I shouldn't be at a disadvantage here and should take very minimal losses since I'm nowhere near stupid enough to fight a kraken in a magical thunderstorm.

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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Nargoth »

in reference to the earlier question.

Draconians are essentially dragon men / half-dragons, they have draconic characteristics scales, tail, claws etc but are the size of a human and have a humanoid body structure (bipedal)

There are multiple races of draconians, my orbat has a hyperlink in it to a wiki article that details their differences.

The 'riders' are mages who are riding dragons, the mage provides magic while the dragon provides strength and mobility.
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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Octavius »

Oh ok.
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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by ari »

Also don't forget that points are just resources. At least, that's how I understood them. An aircraft carrier at 0 points might be a sunken aircraft carrier if that's how the orbat's owner plays it, but it could also be a crippled carrier that's not capable of any combat action except slowly limping home.
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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Harvey »

Ari Rahikkala wrote:Also don't forget that points are just resources. At least, that's how I understood them. An aircraft carrier at 0 points might be a sunken aircraft carrier if that's how the orbat's owner plays it, but it could also be a crippled carrier that's not capable of any combat action except slowly limping home.
I wasn't given the luxury of a choice.
The Kraken grabs round the ship with it's massive tentacles, sweeping planes and weapons off the surface of the ship and then clutching it to smash it in half and pull the bits down to the ocean floor.
This statement is about 90% of my frustration here. He's calling that the carrier is destroyed, as well as a bunch of planes. That's godmodding, plain and simple.

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Re: EXAMPLEWAR PROBLEM/QUESTION THREAD

Post by Gerk »

You're taking things too literally. You have every right to say, "No, this doesn't happen, because I do this."
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