[POLL] About the political future of the State

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Jonas
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[POLL] About the political future of the State

Post by Jonas »

With the Jingdaoese Spring almost behind us, the political elite became convinced that we can not turn the clock back: our nation needs progress, both through modernization of our military, technology and industry. But also on the political screen we need to find a certain common ground between the Jingdaoese (or Jingdaoised) elite and other ethnicities in this country.

The Heavenly Light has gone overseas, leaving the Empire in the hands of politicians (OOC: certain non-Apollonian lands will form their own nation, an absolute monarchy ruled by Rasmus, while I would prefer a certain democratization and more liberal approach on the mainland). In His greatness the Mingshing Emperor has allowed us to take things in our own hands.
All citizens are therefore invited to give their view of how they envision the Jingdaoese-Apollonian Union to become.

Code: Select all

A) Concerning the role of the Heavenly Light (and thus his representative in Jingdao):
[ ] The Heavenly Light should act as symbolic leader of the nation and spiritual guide for His people (Constitutional monarchy).
[ ] The Heavenly Light should keep total and absolute power.
[ ] The Heavenly Light should receive far-going powers, but with a strong parliament to act as a defender of the constitution.

Code: Select all

B. Concerning the democratic institutions:
[ ] No elections are necessary.
[ ] The installation of a one party state will allow for unity in our country. Elections will be held with candidates from the party.
[ ] People shall be allowed to establish and join parties.

Code: Select all

C. The Seanad (chamber of nobles / governors):
[ ] The Seanad should remain abolished.
[ ] The Seanad should act as advisory chamber.
[ ] The Seanad should hold sole legislative powers.
[ ] The Seanad should hold legislative powers, together with the Imperial Yuan.

Code: Select all

D. The Imperial Yuan (Assembly)
[ ] The Yuan should not be re-established
[ ] The Yuan should consist of one party.
[ ] The Yuan should be elected freely from among the population.

Code: Select all

E. The Minority Issue
[ ] The non-Jingdaoese minorities should hold no political rights.
[ ] The non-Jingdaoese minorities are allowed political rights within their designated Home Lands (Counties with the goal to serve as their 'home' and 'representation').
[ ] The non-Jingdaoese minorities whom served in the Armed Forces deserve (limited) political rights.

Code: Select all

F. What is YOUR vision of the political system of the future Jingdaoese-Apollonian Union?
Important characters:
Frederik Alfons des Vinandy-Paravel, King of Batavia
Joseph Bartholomeus des Vinandy-Windsor, Prince-Regent of Batavia
Jin San, Diwang of Jingdao, Duke of Kildare

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Verion
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Re: [POLL] About the political future of the State

Post by Verion »

A) Concerning the role of the Heavenly Light (and thus his representative in Jingdao):
[ ] The Heavenly Light should act as symbolic leader of the nation and spiritual guide for His people (Constitutional monarchy).
[ ] The Heavenly Light should keep total and absolute power.
[ ] The Heavenly Light should receive far-going powers, but with a strong parliament to act as a defender of the constitution.

None of the above



B. Concerning the democratic institutions:
[x] No elections are necessary.
[ ] The installation of a one party state will allow for unity in our country. Elections will be held with candidates from the party.
[ ] People shall be allowed to establish and join parties.



C. The Seanad (chamber of nobles / governors):
[ ] The Seanad should remain abolished.
[ ] The Seanad should act as advisory chamber.
[] The Seanad should hold sole legislative powers.
[ ] The Seanad should hold legislative powers, together with the Imperial Yuan.

None of the above




D. The Imperial Yuan (Assembly)
[ ] The Yuan should not be re-established
[ ] The Yuan should consist of one party.
[ ] The Yuan should be elected freely from among the population.

None of the above



E. The Minority Issue
[ ] The non-Jingdaoese minorities should hold no political rights.
[ ] The non-Jingdaoese minorities are allowed political rights within their designated Home Lands (Counties with the goal to serve as their 'home' and 'representation').
[ ] The non-Jingdaoese minorities whom served in the Armed Forces deserve (limited) political rights.

None of the above


CODE: SELECT ALL
F. What is YOUR vision of the political system of the future Jingdaoese-Apollonian Union?

Strong powers for the Emperor, strong regional powers.
1.Titus Morvayne, Prefect of Shirekeep, Count of the Skyla Islands
2.Eki Aholibamah Verion, Queen in the North
3. Ludovic Verion, Lord of Blackstone and Governor-General of the Iron Company
4. Jeremy Harwinsson Archer, super sleuth

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Orion
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Re: [POLL] About the political future of the State

Post by Orion »

A) Concerning the role of the Heavenly Light (and thus his representative in Jingdao):
[x] The Heavenly Light should act as symbolic leader of the nation and spiritual guide for His people (Constitutional monarchy).
[ ] The Heavenly Light should keep total and absolute power.
[ ] The Heavenly Light should receive far-going powers, but with a strong parliament to act as a defender of the constitution.




B. Concerning the democratic institutions:
[ ] No elections are necessary.
[ ] The installation of a one party state will allow for unity in our country. Elections will be held with candidates from the party.
[x] People shall be allowed to establish and join parties.



C. The Seanad (chamber of nobles / governors):
[ ] The Seanad should remain abolished.
[ ] The Seanad should act as advisory chamber.
[x] The Seanad should hold sole legislative powers.
[ ] The Seanad should hold legislative powers, together with the Imperial Yuan.




D. The Imperial Yuan (Assembly)
[x] The Yuan should not be re-established
[ ] The Yuan should consist of one party.
[ ] The Yuan should be elected freely from among the population.





E. The Minority Issue
[ ] The non-Jingdaoese minorities should hold no political rights.
[x] The non-Jingdaoese minorities are allowed political rights within their designated Home Lands (Counties with the goal to serve as their 'home' and 'representation').
[ ] The non-Jingdaoese minorities whom served in the Armed Forces deserve (limited) political rights.



F. What is YOUR vision of the political system of the future Jingdaoese-Apollonian Union?

Regional nationalism supported and reinforced. "A nation for every people of Jingdao-Apollonia"

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Jonas
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Re: [POLL] About the political future of the State

Post by Jonas »

Some interesting things are coming up: the nation is strongly divided over the role the Heavenly Light has to play in this Jingdaoese-Aopollonian Union. I imagine this is a result of a certain distrust towards the Imperial Household after many ASC years of Jingdaoization.
I imagine most power will reside in the head of government (the Diwang, who's currently played by me). I would like to know how future Diwangs should be chosen (appointment by the HL, a national election, an appointment by the Seanad / Yuan,...).

There seems a consensus that Jingdao is not and should not become a democracy. Orion, I'm not very sure, but you're in favour of parties, etc., but there wouldn't be any institution to have those parties elected in.

It also looks like Jingdao should grant some power to the regions. Traditionally the central government does not limit their powers as long as it's not in contradiction with national laws. This is perhaps something we should make more clear.

Another question to answer: how will the governors (of the zhou) be appointed? Through appointment of a successor, nomination of the Grand Secretariat,...?
Important characters:
Frederik Alfons des Vinandy-Paravel, King of Batavia
Joseph Bartholomeus des Vinandy-Windsor, Prince-Regent of Batavia
Jin San, Diwang of Jingdao, Duke of Kildare

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Orion
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Re: [POLL] About the political future of the State

Post by Orion »

We already have a large number of countries without parties. Why not try for something different? I, for one, miss the days when we had various parties vying for control of the government. It was good fun. The Seanad ( or whatever we keep as a parliament) would be a good venue for parties.


The HL should act as an untouchable figurehead. If you want to put the HL up on a pedestal and treat it as a religious icon, then you need to isolate it from other aspects of government. Executive authority should reside with the Diwang. How that position is elected rests entirely on how you want it to be viewed; e.g. do you want the Diwang to be perceived as dictatorial, or as a popular leader?


I like the idea of regional nationalism. Meaning that regions are strongly nationalist unto themselves and each represents a distinct identity. Having a Jingdaoese monoculture is boring. Been there, done that. Variety is the spice of life. etc. etc. Giving people the ability to develop their own national identity/culture within the overarching umbrella of Jingdao can appeal to a much wider audience, and brings about a lot more creativity.

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Shyriath
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Re: [POLL] About the political future of the State

Post by Shyriath »

Jonas wrote:There seems a consensus that Jingdao is not and should not become a democracy. Orion, I'm not very sure, but you're in favour of parties, etc., but there wouldn't be any institution to have those parties elected in.
A thousand pardons for butting in...

Although parties are most associated with elected bodies, the latter aren't strictly required for an unelected Seanad. The British House of Lords has its members associated with various parties, and yet its members are, I believe, appointed rather than elected. I think that's what Orion's going for here.
Shyriath Farstrider (aka Shyriath Bukolos), KD MOU OLH XBH
Viscount Farstrider of Erysisceptrum, Count Bukolos of the Condo, Harbinger of Cheese

TOTUS MUNDUS TABULAM RASAM EST

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Orion
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Re: [POLL] About the political future of the State

Post by Orion »

^ Yeah, what Shy said.

Thadeus Laing
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Re: [POLL] About the political future of the State

Post by Thadeus Laing »

I'm a non cit of Jingdao. However I would like to return to Melangia to tend my vineyards, as well as to Raynor Isles as a pilgrimage to visit relatives and magician communities there. Therefore I would like to say that I concur with Orion's sentiments on subject peoples, and humbly beseech the Heavenly Light and its servants to protect the Laing family (and Melangians and Raynorians in general) and our right to travel in your Empire. Aryeztir formerly of Rulak would most likely support this sentiment as well although he has been gone for a while.

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Jonas
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Re: [POLL] About the political future of the State

Post by Jonas »

Orion wrote:We already have a large number of countries without parties. Why not try for something different? I, for one, miss the days when we had various parties vying for control of the government. It was good fun. The Seanad ( or whatever we keep as a parliament) would be a good venue for parties.
I do not mind re-introducing parties.

The HL should act as an untouchable figurehead. If you want to put the HL up on a pedestal and treat it as a religious icon, then you need to isolate it from other aspects of government. Executive authority should reside with the Diwang. How that position is elected rests entirely on how you want it to be viewed; e.g. do you want the Diwang to be perceived as dictatorial, or as a popular leader?
That lies within what I was considering: the head of state holds a few oversea territories where he holds absolute power, but within the Union He holds a more religious function. The Diwang would, indeed, become the main executive power and could be held responsible for his deeds in the parliament (Seanad or Yuan).

I like the idea of regional nationalism. Meaning that regions are strongly nationalist unto themselves and each represents a distinct identity. Having a Jingdaoese monoculture is boring. Been there, done that. Variety is the spice of life. etc. etc. Giving people the ability to develop their own national identity/culture within the overarching umbrella of Jingdao can appeal to a much wider audience, and brings about a lot more creativity.
I'm not against cultural diversity, nor do I mind that minorities try to bring back certain aspect of their culture. However, I think such things must develop a bit realistically: wherever you go in Jingdao, you will find Jingdaoese. A total reboot where you ignore that there ever were Jingdaoese, wouldn't fit. I want to see this developed.

One thing we could do: the first elections (if held) would lead to a traditional camp being elected into power (as the ones voting were Jingdaoese). In several cities there are riots as a consequence and the central government promises more freedom to the Zhou.

Certain things like religion (the worship of the Heavenly Light) are for me important to keep, even for Norfolkians. If we can find a common ground for this, I don't mind some far-going compromises and reforms. I would like to avoid a balkanization were the Jingdaoese-Apollonians don't have anything in common anymore.
Important characters:
Frederik Alfons des Vinandy-Paravel, King of Batavia
Joseph Bartholomeus des Vinandy-Windsor, Prince-Regent of Batavia
Jin San, Diwang of Jingdao, Duke of Kildare

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Jonas
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Re: [POLL] About the political future of the State

Post by Jonas »

Shyriath wrote:
A thousand pardons for butting in...

Although parties are most associated with elected bodies, the latter aren't strictly required for an unelected Seanad. The British House of Lords has its members associated with various parties, and yet its members are, I believe, appointed rather than elected. I think that's what Orion's going for here.
True. But who appoints those parties?



EDIT:
So, let's say that the governors and Counts have a vote in the Seanad. These representatives need to align with a political affiliation (a party). Every two or three months an election is hold for the Diwang.
Is this acceptable?


EDIT 2:

1. Every citizen may claim a county to call his own home.

2. Every three months, the Counts shall elect a governor to govern their Zhou. [de facto you are pretty sure you will be governor of your zhou. Ingame, we pretend that the elite holds an election for a governor.]

3. Both Counts and Governors have a seat in the Seanad. Both functions receive one vote. [if you're both governor and Count, you shall hold two votes]

4. The Seanad appoints every three months (after the so-called regional elections) a Diwang. In case a government falls (because someone changes sides, for example), a new Diwang must be appointed.

I think that there are around 50 constituencies (= 50 seats).
I would recalculate the number of votes and simulate the administration. For example: Party A has two representatives (2/5th), Party B has three representative (3/5th). --> 20 seats would be in hands of A, 30 seats in hands of B. In case there is a leftover seat, we give a random district to a 'Neutral Party'.
Important characters:
Frederik Alfons des Vinandy-Paravel, King of Batavia
Joseph Bartholomeus des Vinandy-Windsor, Prince-Regent of Batavia
Jin San, Diwang of Jingdao, Duke of Kildare

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Verion
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Re: [POLL] About the political future of the State

Post by Verion »

County = district?
1.Titus Morvayne, Prefect of Shirekeep, Count of the Skyla Islands
2.Eki Aholibamah Verion, Queen in the North
3. Ludovic Verion, Lord of Blackstone and Governor-General of the Iron Company
4. Jeremy Harwinsson Archer, super sleuth

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Jonas
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Re: [POLL] About the political future of the State

Post by Jonas »

Verion wrote:County = district?
Yes, sorry for the confusion.
Important characters:
Frederik Alfons des Vinandy-Paravel, King of Batavia
Joseph Bartholomeus des Vinandy-Windsor, Prince-Regent of Batavia
Jin San, Diwang of Jingdao, Duke of Kildare

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Orion
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Re: [POLL] About the political future of the State

Post by Orion »

Jonas wrote:I'm not against cultural diversity, nor do I mind that minorities try to bring back certain aspect of their culture. However, I think such things must develop a bit realistically: wherever you go in Jingdao, you will find Jingdaoese. A total reboot where you ignore that there ever were Jingdaoese, wouldn't fit. I want to see this developed.
I'm not suggesting a reboot or ignoring any of the past. But on the same tangent you've also been ignoring a past that extends much further back in time than Jingdao. If you consider how long Norfolk has been around versus how long Jingdao has been around; the latter is only a tiny blip on the map. Jingdao is essentially and occupying and suppressing force (good or bad it doesn't matter). It's a lot like Man in the High Castle with Japan occupying America.
Jonas wrote:One thing we could do: the first elections (if held) would lead to a traditional camp being elected into power (as the ones voting were Jingdaoese). In several cities there are riots as a consequence and the central government promises more freedom to the Zhou.
That could work. And you could also spin it both ways. Meaning the government could grant more power to those Zhou that wish for more freedom (like Norfolk) while using it as an excuse to crack down on non-PC areas that you want to be strictly Jingdaoese.
Jonas wrote:Certain things like religion (the worship of the Heavenly Light) are for me important to keep, even for Norfolkians. If we can find a common ground for this, I don't mind some far-going compromises and reforms. I would like to avoid a balkanization were the Jingdaoese-Apollonians don't have anything in common anymore.
Norfolkians are old Apollonians and therefore are still going to be sun-worshippers; like Apollantis, Audentior, and so forth before them. The only way I can see to reconcile this is that the Norfolkians play at worship to the Heavenly Light, while in reality still worship the old gods in the dark recesses of their homes. I don't really think it's a "balkanization" to have one or two nationalized states representing some of the long-established cultures.

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Re: [POLL] About the political future of the State

Post by Josephat de Montfort »

FYI, and totally irrelevant in this discussion: this will be my Jingdaoese account.

Jack
Josephat de Montfort, Kasterburger ambassador to the Imperial Republic of Shireroth

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Jonas
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Re: [POLL] About the political future of the State

Post by Jonas »

I'm not suggesting a reboot or ignoring any of the past. But on the same tangent you've also been ignoring a past that extends much further back in time than Jingdao. If you consider how long Norfolk has been around versus how long Jingdao has been around; the latter is only a tiny blip on the map. Jingdao is essentially and occupying and suppressing force (good or bad it doesn't matter). It's a lot like Man in the High Castle with Japan occupying America.
Heh, I think I understand what you're referring to. =p
That could work. And you could also spin it both ways. Meaning the government could grant more power to those Zhou that wish for more freedom (like Norfolk) while using it as an excuse to crack down on non-PC areas that you want to be strictly Jingdaoese.
Indeed. It's up to the Seanad and Grand Secretariat to show some leniency towards certain Zhou. Each case is, of course, different.

Norfolkians are old Apollonians and therefore are still going to be sun-worshippers; like Apollantis, Audentior, and so forth before them. The only way I can see to reconcile this is that the Norfolkians play at worship to the Heavenly Light, while in reality still worship the old gods in the dark recesses of their homes. I don't really think it's a "balkanization" to have one or two nationalized states representing some of the long-established cultures.
I'm not very enthusiastic about this. Knowing how much importance the Jingdaoese put on religion (or at least the worship of gods through the Emperor) this is an issue which I don't really want to oversee (to avoid future OOC conflicts). I'm not planning to give in on this issue, but if you see it as workable to have a part of your population worship old gods in secret, that's fine for me. Another thing: the main principle of the Worship of the Emperor is that He acts as intermediary between Gods and people, so perhaps there are Norfolkians who pray to their old gods through the Heavenly Light.
Important characters:
Frederik Alfons des Vinandy-Paravel, King of Batavia
Joseph Bartholomeus des Vinandy-Windsor, Prince-Regent of Batavia
Jin San, Diwang of Jingdao, Duke of Kildare

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Raz
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Re: [POLL] About the political future of the State

Post by Raz »

Code: Select all

A) Concerning the role of the Heavenly Light (and thus his representative in Jingdao):
[ ] The Heavenly Light should act as symbolic leader of the nation and spiritual guide for His people (Constitutional monarchy).
[x] The Heavenly Light should keep total and absolute power.
[ ] The Heavenly Light should receive far-going powers, but with a strong parliament to act as a defender of the constitution.

Code: Select all

B. Concerning the democratic institutions:
[x] No elections are necessary.
[ ] The installation of a one party state will allow for unity in our country. Elections will be held with candidates from the party.
[ ] People shall be allowed to establish and join parties.

Code: Select all

C. The Seanad (chamber of nobles / governors):
[x] The Seanad should remain abolished.
[ ] The Seanad should act as advisory chamber.
[ ] The Seanad should hold sole legislative powers.
[ ] The Seanad should hold legislative powers, together with the Imperial Yuan.

Code: Select all

D. The Imperial Yuan (Assembly)
[x] The Yuan should not be re-established
[ ] The Yuan should consist of one party.
[ ] The Yuan should be elected freely from among the population.

Code: Select all

E. The Minority Issue
[x] The non-Jingdaoese minorities should hold no political rights.
[ ] The non-Jingdaoese minorities are allowed political rights within their designated Home Lands (Counties with the goal to serve as their 'home' and 'representation').
[ ] The non-Jingdaoese minorities whom served in the Armed Forces deserve (limited) political rights.

Code: Select all

F. What is YOUR vision of the political system of the future Jingdaoese-Apollonian Union? 
It is an abomination and should be abolished.
[/quote]

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