Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

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Vilhelm Benkern
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Vilhelm Benkern »

Sophia Myksos wrote:I feel a kind of shame, comparing my map version with what I think that Shyriath will come up with...
We will always remember your amazing map. :bow: The shoulders on which Shyriath's efforts now heap mass!
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Shyriath »

Sophia Myksos wrote:I feel a kind of shame, comparing my map version with what I think that Shyriath will come up with...
I think everyone else has pretty well covered the proper response to this. No shame for you. =p

Also, do you remember having any ideas about how far outside the city the Valley of Mors was supposed to be?
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Sophia Myksos
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Sophia Myksos »

Shyriath wrote: Also, do you remember having any ideas about how far outside the city the Valley of Mors was supposed to be?
Not very far, but I never gave it real thought about the distance either. The procession with the dead Kaiser would pass some farmland or villages, but in the end reach Sakatopolis (a small village which is the only official entrance to the Valley). I don't think anyone would mind if you place it relatively close, even making Sakatopolis part of the outskirts of Shirekeep would be possible.
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Aasmund Vigeland »

But Saint Zor's Station and Anandja's Colosseum are not part of the city, and they were on the outskirts of the main conurbation before the war...
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Shyriath »

Yeah, there is that. Short of physically moving them, the Valley and Sakatopolis are outside Shirekeep's jurisdiction one way or the other, presumably somewhere within the St. Zor district (since, as I recall, it was suposed to be north of the city) which is Musican, at least for now.

I'll want to wait until any possible land transfers are settled, but once they are, I wonder if it might be possible to come to an arrangement with the Imperial State in question over those grounds... if not an outright cession, then at least some kind of extraterritoriality agreement.
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Shyriath »

Lyssansa Rossheim wrote:
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For ease of reference, the diameter of the colosseum has been reset at 240 metres.
When I attempted to translate this onto my map, I got not 240 meters but something more like 280, measuring from the outermost circle. It took me a while, and a bunch of experimentation, to figure out why this was, but what it amounts to is this: if I size the Westshire map so that the outline of the coasts and roads and everything match up, which is what I was doing, Fort Colosseum appears too big for its measurements (but still matches the footprint of the old colosseum). If I take a more mathematical approach and size it so that the scale listed matches mine, Fort Colosseum is indeed 240 meters, but not only is it smaller than the old colosseum, everything else is too small as well. In other words, I think you and I, Rossheim, are measuring the scale of the city as a whole differently.

I should have gone through all this earlier, for the sake of documentation, but here's the process I used to arrive at my scale, and what it implies for measuring the city according to the previous map:

I had taken Octy's map of the Raynor Keep complex as a standard, since the size of it was established in the post as 900 meters wide by 800 meters high and that was the only explicitly stated scale I'd see so far. I imported it as a layer into my map, and resized it to match the coastlines of the previous map. Then I adjusted the size of everything in the file so that I would get an easily divisible scale: in this case, 1 inch = 100 meters. Equating pixels is a bit trickier, because the vector files aren't necessarily defined by pixels, but I did set default resolution of the file at 100 dots per inch. (If I exported the map at full size, therefore, my map would have a scale of pixel per meter. I don't usually export it at full size because of hugeness reasons, but that shouldn't be affecting the differences in measurement for imported maps.)

What I did not consider was any kind of scale for the previous city map, because for my own purposes I didn't really need it; all it does for me is make sure everything's sitting in the right place. But if that's the map you're basing things off of, and you want measurements to be right, it suddenly becomes really important, which I suppose I should've considered. After a bit of puzzling, it appears that the old map is (and despite the decimals this is a bit rough) 3.8451 meters per pixel, at 1800 px wide by 1500 px high.

Edit: So the moral of all this is that 1) getting the scale right is a sucky process, and 2) including the scale when submitting a chunk of map for inclusion is nonetheless important, because 3) if someone's scale matches mine, I now know how to resize the map by numbers instead of judging it by eye, and 4) if someone's scale DOESN'T match mine, it quickly becomes obvious through the resizing process.

In this particular instance, if you'd prefer the 240-meter measurement to be maintained, I can shrink the size of Fort Colosseum on my map and we can assume that it doesn't QUITE match the footprint of the old colosseum, or we can assume it's really 280 meters and it can stay the same and match the old colosseum. (There's also the option of changing my scale, but I'd really rather not if I can avoid it, especially since it's based on someone else's work and it works exceptionally well.)
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Lyssansa Rossheim
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Lyssansa Rossheim »

I want to make it very clear that the following is in no way a criticism of you, Shyriath; nor indeed is it really directed at anyone in particular:

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fucking marvellous. Not only have all the hours I spent scaling Fort Colosseum and Westshire gone up in a huge puff of smoke, but we can assume that all my maps of Lichkeep are similarly fucked-up...and all because there's never been a clear and concise statement about the fucking scale, despite me making several queries about it.

For the record, this is how I arrived at my interpretation of the scale. Octy mentioned somewhere that he was setting the width of Kaiser's Boulevard as shown on the existing map at 25 metres. Confusingly, there are in fact two versions of the existing map: the one on the wiki and the higher definition one Octy referenced in one of his Raynor's Keep threads. On the former the Boulevard is about six pixels wide, giving a scale of about 4 metres to the pixel, while on the latter, it is about ten pixels across, for a scale of 2.5 metres to the pixel. The Colosseum is about 58-60 pixels across on the smaller map and 93-96 on the larger map, suggesting a structure somewhere in the region of 240 metres (my first attempt was too small because I used the 2.5 metres to pixel scale for the wrong map).

If those assumptions are wrong, then literally everything I have produced is wrong and since I am a perfectionist who likes my buildings, walls and roads to be of a plausible size, I will have to change everything.

Okay, frustrated rant over.

Shy, I really don't know what to suggest. If you resize the Colosseum to fit your scale, the walls and towers will be too damned big. If you treat the maps of Westshire and Lichkeep as very general "statements of intent", then I suppose I could work backwards from your maps to rebuild my own and then hopefully between us we can make the details and dimensions converge, but I really don't want to make more work for you.

I don't suppose you could give me a copy of your vector files, along with any assumptions regarding the thickness of walls and roads etc.? That way I could co-ordinate my work with yours and hopefully we can avoid any further screw-ups. If I know how large things are supposed to be, then I can make them fit.
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Kaiser Mo'll I »

Heh... one perfectionist to another, Wossy, I feel your pain :oops:

If all else fails, we'll in-sim it as the error of some lowly draughtsman for which he pays with his life...
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Mira Octavius-Aryani »

It reminds me of the story of the Tupolev Tu-4. It was reverse engineered by the Soviets from the US B-29. But because the Soviets used metric and Americans use "Standard", the Tupolev is ever so slightly larger in all of its parts, so none of the parts between a Tu-4 and a B-29 are actually compatible. They're ever so slightly different enough that you don't want to mix the two up or you'll drive yourself mad.

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Flavius Myksos
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Flavius Myksos »

This obsession with using the right scale is a bit over the top, isn't it?
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Shyriath »

Lyssansa Rossheim wrote:Shy, I really don't know what to suggest. If you resize the Colosseum to fit your scale, the walls and towers will be too damned big. If you treat the maps of Westshire and Lichkeep as very general "statements of intent", then I suppose I could work backwards from your maps to rebuild my own and then hopefully between us we can make the details and dimensions converge, but I really don't want to make more work for you.

I don't suppose you could give me a copy of your vector files, along with any assumptions regarding the thickness of walls and roads etc.? That way I could co-ordinate my work with yours and hopefully we can avoid any further screw-ups. If I know how large things are supposed to be, then I can make them fit.
My working file is not currently in SVG format, because historically CorelDraw has not played as well with it, but it was a few program versions ago that I last tried it and had major problems, so I'll see what happens when I try converting it over; if interoperability means we can avoid further mix-ups, I'll be happy to try it. Which program are you using for vector work? Inkscape? If so, I can test the SVG in it beforehand to make sure it looks right.

The only standards I have so far for walls are Octy's estimates for the Reynardine Walls, which are sort of an exceptional case. Looking up thicknesses for medieval city walls, and for curtain walls around castles, they tend not to exceed 10 meters, and more often seem to cluster into the 3 to 6 range. The only really substantial walls I've actually drawn so far are for Tempus Keep, and in that case all I was doing was tracing over what was on the Lichkeep map.

As for roads... for ease of drawing and consistency of thickness, I'm using lines rather than two-dimensional shapes to depict those. But if I remember right (I don't have the file with me right now to check) I was indeed using 25 meters for wide roads like the Kaiser's Boulevard, and 12.5 for the next size down.
Kaiser Mo'll I wrote:Heh... one perfectionist to another, Wossy, I feel your pain :oops:

If all else fails, we'll in-sim it as the error of some lowly draughtsman for which he pays with his life...
OFF WITH HIS HEAD.
Flavius Myksos wrote:This obsession with using the right scale is a bit over the top, isn't it?
...

...you ought to wash your mouth out, speaking heresy like that. =p
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Vilhelm Benkern
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Vilhelm Benkern »

Quelle dommage!
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Yfirstormarksgythia »

A High Priestess wishes to request a spot for Froyalans Hertugshall and a Vanic Temple near the aforementioned castle. :-D
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Shyriath »

Which one? We have a couple. =p

If you mean Tempus Keep, your holiness: that side of the river is not Shirekeep proper, and the siting of buildings there would, I think, be subject to the agreement of the Queen of
Lichbrook. But a place across the river from Tempus would, I think, not be a problem for my part.
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Yfirstormarksgythia »

Shyriath wrote:Which one? We have a couple. =p
This Storish High Priestess! :-D
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Yfirstormarksgythia »

Shyriath wrote:But a place across the river from Tempus would, I think, not be a problem for my part.
This Storish High Priestess wishes to convey that she would be exuberantly content with the above placement of Froyalans Hertugshall and the Vanic Temple. :-D
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Mira Octavius-Aryani »

What do the other ones say?

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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Rei Milharna »

First person pronouns.

Learn them, love them, use them.

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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Yfirstormarksgythia »

Mira Octavius-Aryani wrote:What do the other ones say?
"By your command, Your High Holiness!"
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Re: Shirekeep Redevelopment Scratchpad

Post by Mira Octavius-Aryani »

A peculiar custom from beyond the seas indeed.

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