Bank Ideas

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Bank Ideas

Postby Yulodion E'nothwocep » Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:03 am

Please note that the following ideas are for a SIMULATION-ONLY, virtual play money bank.

Here they are:

Assuming we don't let Shireroth, etc. grandfather in their massive treasury accounts and we start completely from scratch:

This bank needs to operate like a REAL bank and not just a list of accounts. It needs to charge and pay INTEREST.

- The bank will take start to take a percentage fee (interest) from the amount in a LOAN account.
- The bank will lend out, not give out (as it currently does), money to national treasuries, as an international bank. The price is the interest. The interest will be taken out automatically each day.
- The bank will also have SAVINGS accounts that it will PAY interest onto. These will be personal and company accounts. The fact that these earn interest will serve as an incentive for the nations to give their money to their residents instead of hoarding it. National treasuries may have to tax or charge interest to personal and company accounts in order to pay the interest they owe the bank.
- If a nation fails to repay a loan, then a tax can be enforced on its resident personal and company accounts in order to collect. If no money is collected, the bank will absorb the loss; however, the nation will be prevented from obtaining a new loan for a period of time. Interest rates may rise over the entire system if a number of nations default.
- A monthly lottery. Personal accounts would be eligible. This will be funded by the interest collections. It might even be automatic and non-optional. *
- Also funded by the interest collections would be a small monthly payment to personal accounts under a certain amount, a "basic income" **
- Stricter requirements, like MCS, on which nations can join

Now if we do grandfather in the massive old Shireroth, Alexandria, etc. SCUE treasury accounts, and those of noblemen or agencies who have large stashes, they would likely be put into SAVINGS ACCOUNT category. There, their money accumulated since 2011 or whenever could remain intact. However all new treasury accounts now will be required to be interest based.

Now, these are great ideas, you say. I know, I know. But how do you implement them? I know, I know.
Well, all the features could be implemented manually by one of us sitting at home with a
calculator and tediously entering in the numbers like an accountant! You'd like to volunteer, right?
Maybe not--it would be time consuming.

However having them implemented in PHP to run automatic would require someone to make
changes to the SCUE bank code. Yes, that is an issue too.

* Those who do not believe in a lottery could opt out.
** For nations which do not want a basic income, the payment could be made in a block to the nation's treasury.
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby Verion » Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:18 pm

Some interesting ideas, Yraite. Just some points in response:

- I think that "we" should strive towards a system that uses the current SCUE platform. Many of the options you are discussing (lending, taxation) are already possible with SCUE. The most important reason for this is that we simply don't have the know-how or the necessary people to set up an entirely new system that would perfectly fit these ideas. So, that limits posibilities.

- It is absolutely necessary that governments are involved in this. After all - they would have to provide their citizens with income. Although I am certainly in favour of active government participation, I don't think that a basis income would be a great idea. Rather, we should go with a merit system, such as the bounty system Shireroth used to have. This also gives more value to the currency. But I would say that we can leave that up to the national governments.

- Within the system of the SCUE it needs to be up to private companies to start banks. After all, the SCUE itself doesn't serve as an actual bank for the simple reason that this would be tricking the system. After all, SCUE can make money out of nothing. So I believe that the person actually creating the SCUE, needs to stay out of economic affairs.

In a way, there should be enough money in circulation in the SCUE to make a serious start. I for one have money that potentially interested people can borrow, if they want. So I could start a bank.

I think we should mostly look at the next level - why would people want money? To buy things, sure. But the always returning question in micronations is that it is quite possible to have things without money. Lists of fictional commodities will not work - therefore the only option is to use real commodities. Newspapers, artwork, storywriting. There is room for this, absolutely. Fjorleif for example makes nice Coats of Arms. She could sell them. Ryker was offering some artwork recently - he could sell that. Only if the community is willing to take the economic system into account, it will work. I'm all for it, but who else is?
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby Zibertian Kind » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:27 pm

Lists of fictional commodities will not work - therefore the only option is to use real commodities.


What makes you think this? It is apparently a fairly common idea in this community, and it doesn't really follow. The problem is that "real" goods, like maps and pictures might be enjoyable and useful on an OOC level, for us OOC users, but the fact is that they really have very little to nothing to do with the countries which are the focus of our work here. A coat of arms is great, but it doesn't actually allow for any development beyond the coat of arms. This holds true for any real, or OOC goods. They inevitably occupy a realm separate from the micronation itself. Participating in the OOC, or real economy, becomes a separate hobby from the micronation, and in that it becomes a task or a chore. This is why micronational economies based on OOC goods always fail. OOC goods are too far removed from the micronations they're originally intended to represent.

Simulated, or IC goods in contrast, can directly contribute to the nation itself. They can directly contribute to the growth and development of the nation, to the extent that is possible for a nation to base its entire identity, with no problem, around a simulated economy. This is the case in my own countries, which function nowadays as economic simulations rather than as traditional countries. In a simulated economy, there is no disconnect between commerce and the country itself, and so both the country and the economy can be entertained at once. While there is a risk that even the simulated economy loses relevance to the country, the risk is much less significant than in the OOC economy. That said, it is nevertheless possible to have a simulated economy in which it is still possible to exchange OOC goods. It doesn't need to be either or. It's simply that the IC economy must take priority over the OOC economy.

With all of that in mind, I recommend that regardless of whether your economy is primarily IC or OOC, the SCX is still an overall better option for banking and commerce than SCUE is in and of itself. There is much more to be done with the fluctuating currency of the SCX than with the stagnant, unchanging currency of SCUE in general. I encourage you to consider building your economy around the SCX, rather than around SCUE.
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby The Tarjeisson Trust » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:12 pm

Isn't most SCUE 'capital' still sunk in the black hole of Gralus?
  1. Burgrave Waldemar Zinkgraven: Steward of Shireroth.
  2. Liv Dravot: Imperial Mother. Princess of the Elwynnese Republic. Director of the ESB Group
  3. Daniyal Sikander Dravot: Administrator of the estate of the late Thorgils Tarjeisson. Chairman of the ESB Group.
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby Verion » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:33 pm

Thorgils Tarjeisson wrote:Isn't most SCUE 'capital' still sunk in the black hole of Gralus?


I have a certain amount of SCUE units.
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby The Tarjeisson Trust » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:43 pm

Verion wrote:
Thorgils Tarjeisson wrote:Isn't most SCUE 'capital' still sunk in the black hole of Gralus?


I have a certain amount of SCUE units.


Yes - I recall. :wink: The main reason we took Elwynn off SCUE, of which you were then the happy beneficiary, was that we'd lost confidence in its utility. Really it's just better I think to simulate economic activity as you would political activity. You can either do that with an admirable dedication to internal consistency and detail like Passo-Corum or in a thoroughly slipshod, borderline corrupt, fashion like the ESB. :mrgreen:
  1. Burgrave Waldemar Zinkgraven: Steward of Shireroth.
  2. Liv Dravot: Imperial Mother. Princess of the Elwynnese Republic. Director of the ESB Group
  3. Daniyal Sikander Dravot: Administrator of the estate of the late Thorgils Tarjeisson. Chairman of the ESB Group.
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby Yulodion E'nothwocep » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:02 pm

Our SCUE economy is like a stagnant pond of water, going nowhere and too
foul and oxygen deprived for aquatic life.

What I want to do is open a little creek out of it. Then, water will be running
out, but it will also be more likely to bring forth life.

If an ecosystem of micro uses such as bounties, virtual goods, gifts, etc. develop,
that would be ideal--or unknown uses not yet foreseen.

If an ecosystem does not develop, well then at least we tried one last time.
Last edited by Yulodion E'nothwocep on Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby Verion » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:11 pm

Yraite Ergonak wrote:Bounties, virtual goods, gifts, etc.--these are micro uses of the economy.

My ideas mostly revolve around the macro. Our SCUE economy is like a stagnant pond of water, going nowhere and too foul and oxygen deprived for aquatic life. What I want to do is open a little creek out of it. The water will be running out, but it will also be more likely to bring forth life. If an ecosystem of micro uses such as bounties, virtual goods, gifts, etc. develop, that would be ideal, or unknown uses not foreseen.

If it doesn't, well at least we tried one last time.

Please note that my plan does involve liberal and increased lending of money out of the SCUE treasury. The key is to remember they have to pay it back and the proceeds will, over time, accrue to those without loans.


That's all good and well, but why would people actually want to borrow money? It seems to me that it a rather crucial question. Although I love your poetic analogy, I don't reallly see a concrete plan for that.
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby Yulodion E'nothwocep » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:41 pm

Verion wrote:
Yraite Ergonak wrote:Bounties, virtual goods, gifts, etc.--these are micro uses of the economy.

My ideas mostly revolve around the macro. Our SCUE economy is like a stagnant pond of water, going nowhere and too foul and oxygen deprived for aquatic life. What I want to do is open a little creek out of it. The water will be running out, but it will also be more likely to bring forth life. If an ecosystem of micro uses such as bounties, virtual goods, gifts, etc. develop, that would be ideal, or unknown uses not foreseen.

If it doesn't, well at least we tried one last time.

Please note that my plan does involve liberal and increased lending of money out of the SCUE treasury. The key is to remember they have to pay it back and the proceeds will, over time, accrue to those without loans.


That's all good and well, but why would people actually want to borrow money? It seems to me that it a rather crucial question. Although I love your poetic analogy, I don't reallly see a concrete plan for that.


Nations would be required to borrow money to join SCUE (15,000 SCUE, etc.) and per citizen. This is instead of free as it currently is. As for individual persons or companies, they could borrow money, but it would not be from SCUE, it would be either from their nation's treasury or from a private bank or individual.
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby The Tarjeisson Trust » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:46 pm

Yraite Ergonak wrote:
Verion wrote:
Yraite Ergonak wrote:Bounties, virtual goods, gifts, etc.--these are micro uses of the economy.

My ideas mostly revolve around the macro. Our SCUE economy is like a stagnant pond of water, going nowhere and too foul and oxygen deprived for aquatic life. What I want to do is open a little creek out of it. The water will be running out, but it will also be more likely to bring forth life. If an ecosystem of micro uses such as bounties, virtual goods, gifts, etc. develop, that would be ideal, or unknown uses not foreseen.

If it doesn't, well at least we tried one last time.

Please note that my plan does involve liberal and increased lending of money out of the SCUE treasury. The key is to remember they have to pay it back and the proceeds will, over time, accrue to those without loans.


That's all good and well, but why would people actually want to borrow money? It seems to me that it a rather crucial question. Although I love your poetic analogy, I don't reallly see a concrete plan for that.


Nations would be required to borrow money to join SCUE (15,000 SCUE, etc.) and per citizen. This is instead of free as it currently is. As for individual persons or companies, they could borrow money, but it would not be from SCUE, it would be either from their nation's treasury or from a private bank or individual.


This sounds like it rather depends on someone opening up SCUE to allow people to tinker with its inner workings.
  1. Burgrave Waldemar Zinkgraven: Steward of Shireroth.
  2. Liv Dravot: Imperial Mother. Princess of the Elwynnese Republic. Director of the ESB Group
  3. Daniyal Sikander Dravot: Administrator of the estate of the late Thorgils Tarjeisson. Chairman of the ESB Group.
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby Yulodion E'nothwocep » Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:50 pm

Thorgils Tarjeisson wrote:
Yraite Ergonak wrote:
Verion wrote:
Yraite Ergonak wrote:Bounties, virtual goods, gifts, etc.--these are micro uses of the economy.

My ideas mostly revolve around the macro. Our SCUE economy is like a stagnant pond of water, going nowhere and too foul and oxygen deprived for aquatic life. What I want to do is open a little creek out of it. The water will be running out, but it will also be more likely to bring forth life. If an ecosystem of micro uses such as bounties, virtual goods, gifts, etc. develop, that would be ideal, or unknown uses not foreseen.

If it doesn't, well at least we tried one last time.

Please note that my plan does involve liberal and increased lending of money out of the SCUE treasury. The key is to remember they have to pay it back and the proceeds will, over time, accrue to those without loans.


That's all good and well, but why would people actually want to borrow money? It seems to me that it a rather crucial question. Although I love your poetic analogy, I don't reallly see a concrete plan for that.


Nations would be required to borrow money to join SCUE (15,000 SCUE, etc.) and per citizen. This is instead of free as it currently is. As for individual persons or companies, they could borrow money, but it would not be from SCUE, it would be either from their nation's treasury or from a private bank or individual.


This sounds like it rather depends on someone opening up SCUE to allow people to tinker with its inner workings.


Yes. It needs tinkering.

I volunteer to do the tinkering for exactly 1 one month as SCUE Admin and free of charge to get things in place.

Then, I would hand over control over to someone else.

Because I don't want my ideas to stand on their own, to show that they do not rely on me personally, in order to function.

If I don't leave after exactly 1 month you can kick me out.
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby Verion » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:21 pm

Still it doesn't really address my main concern, does it? What could someone actually do with the money? I think forcing governments to take a loan is also rather... unconventional. I don't think we get many governments enthousiastic for that.
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby Zibertian Kind » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:43 pm

I am much less concerned about who runs SCUE than I am with actual ideas. If you've got a good idea, then you should be able to lay it out regardless of whatever office you hold. Personally, I don't believe you've offered anything new, and your inability to answer obvious questions doesn't bode particularly well either. I want to hear good economic ideas, and I want to help build something the community can enjoy, but this leaves me wanting.

I know it gets tiresome when I talk endlessly about my own work, but I've created a theoretical, meaningful loan market in my own economy just simply by allowing investors to spend more money than they actually have. Basically, an investor with access to 25,000 polis might invest 30,000 polis in the market, thereby accumulating 5,000 polis worth of theoretical loans, or debts. These debts are resolved either through taxes, or through reductions in investment; investors resolve their debts either by investing in tax companies, who produce polis, or by selling off some of their shares in the market. Loans and loan repayments have a considerable impact on the market's overall activity. On one hand they impact the manner in which investors spend their money, to the extent that investors must strive to avoid extremely large loans, while on the other they keep the market active, insofar as their repayment involves alterations to investments.

The nice thing about this type of loan market is that it doesn't rely on an actual lender. There's not a real person in my economy, in other words, who's lending out money. They just happen automatically as a result of market activity. And their existence also impacts market activity, in the manner described above.

I guess that what I'm getting at is that deficit spending in a simulated economy is a good thing. This is something that SCUE doesn't necessarily allow for.
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby Verion » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:53 pm

I think your economic framework mostly provides solutions for problems that don't exist and do not answer the obvious questions about how to actually create a realistic market with the laws of supply and demand in interactive geofiction.

Not that I don't appreciate what you're doing, it's just way too complicated and I don't see a serious chance of a succesful implementation across Micras.
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby Yulodion E'nothwocep » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:56 pm

Verion wrote:Still it doesn't really address my main concern, does it? What could someone actually do with the money? I think forcing governments to take a loan is also rather... unconventional. I don't think we get many governments enthousiastic for that.


"What could someone actually do with the money?" I said the following,

If an ecosystem of micro uses such as bounties, virtual goods, gifts, etc. develop,
that would be ideal--or unknown uses not yet foreseen.


"I think forcing governments to take a loan is also rather... unconventional."

Yes, but without the creek (accounts which diminish over time, creating urgency
to spend, circulation), there cannot be life in the ecosystem. We must create the creek.
I even think we may need to charge a fee to existing accounts even if they are grandfathered
in because the rate of new nations being created has slowed since when SCUE was
first created and was in a somewhat more popular state.

Have faith, Verion.
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby Yulodion E'nothwocep » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:11 am

I am much less concerned about who runs SCUE than I am with actual ideas. If you've got a good idea, then you should be able to lay it out regardless of whatever office you hold. Personally, I don't believe you've offered anything new, and your inability to answer obvious questions doesn't bode particularly well either. I want to hear good economic ideas, and I want to help build something the community can enjoy, but this leaves me wanting.

I know it gets tiresome when I talk endlessly about my own work, but I've created a theoretical, meaningful loan market in my own economy just simply by allowing investors to spend more money than they actually have. Basically, an investor with access to 25,000 polis might invest 30,000 polis in the market, thereby accumulating 5,000 polis worth of theoretical loans, or debts. These debts are resolved either through taxes, or through reductions in investment; investors resolve their debts either by investing in tax companies, who produce polis, or by selling off some of their shares in the market. Loans and loan repayments have a considerable impact on the market's overall activity. On one hand they impact the manner in which investors spend their money, to the extent that investors must strive to avoid extremely large loans, while on the other they keep the market active, insofar as their repayment involves alterations to investments.

The nice thing about this type of loan market is that it doesn't rely on an actual lender. There's not a real person in my economy, in other words, who's lending out money. They just happen automatically as a result of market activity. And their existence also impacts market activity, in the manner described above.

I guess that what I'm getting at is that deficit spending in a simulated economy is a good thing. This is something that SCUE doesn't necessarily allow for.


I do not state the exact methods not because I do not have the answers.

Rather, I do not state the exact methods because they would be a distraction.

I can say that in some respects Passo Corum and the system I propose may
have a few similarities.

I see an opportunity for us to join forces, but please know that we will not
be answering to Passo Corum or have Passo Corum be the center of our
economic world, nor will we use the SCX, your spreadsheets, etc. We will
only use the existing SCUE or an enhanced version of it customized to our
new needs.
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby Zibertian Kind » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:49 am

Verion wrote:I think your economic framework mostly provides solutions for problems that don't exist and do not answer the obvious questions about how to actually create a realistic market with the laws of supply and demand in interactive geofiction.

Not that I don't appreciate what you're doing, it's just way too complicated and I don't see a serious chance of a succesful implementation across Micras.


That's all I'm really hoping for at this point. I'm way past the point of wanting everyone to adopt my model outright. As long as people are able to vaguely understand and appreciate what I'm doing, I'm happy. It's a bonus if other nations want to get involved, or if they're able to adapt some of the ideas I've come up with.

Yraite Ergonak wrote:
...
I see an opportunity for us to join forces, but please know that we will not
be answering to Passo Corum or have Passo Corum be the center of our
economic world, nor will we use the SCX, your spreadsheets, etc. We will
only use the existing SCUE or an enhanced version of it customized to our
new needs.


You are free to choose your own limitations.
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby Yulodion E'nothwocep » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:25 pm

Back to the drawing board. SCUE has failed to ratify the proposed improvements.
At this point I would say that the organization as a whole either wants to fail or
does not care if they fail. Therefore, we move on to Plan B.

Plan B was originally Plan A. I was going to share Plan A with Verion and let Verion
take the lead role in implementing it, but then [my other character, Giles] got
elected SCUE admin. At that time we though it would be wise not to share the ideas
with Verion because he might use them compete with our SCUE amendment idea--which
was similar but was more in the public interest, benefiting the SCUE organization
and Micran-kind as a whole through stimuluses, etc., rather than the hands of a few.

However now it appears that the only option to revive activity is Plan B (which
was originally Plan A): A small group of dedicated actors, working outside of the
SCUE organization or its member nations, to increases activity by a variety of means,
primarily as an external bank, handing out stimulus payments as well as collecting
interest and fees to make income. The entire operation would be owned and
controlled by those few big-league rich participants in SCUE who still have an
interested in keeping and increasing their money on SCUE. Their names and virtual
companies can be found among the Top 20 richest SCUE Accounts lists. Thadeus
has already contacted a few of them.

SCUE will be kept in operation as the 'plumbing' but nothing more, just as under
Liam. (Giles may do another couple of more stimulus payments using proceeds from
any of the tiny amounts remaining in the former Natopian and Shirerithian accounts
after they formally exit.)
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby Imperial Envoy #12491 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:27 am

Jingdao has a functional economy in which goods are sold, lotteries are held and progressive equity taxes are levied. We have no interest in SCUE which is just an instrument of international capitalism to avoid taxes.
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Re: Bank Ideas

Postby Yulodion E'nothwocep » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:16 pm

Imperial Envoy #12491 wrote:Jingdao has a functional economy in which goods are sold, lotteries are held and progressive equity taxes are levied. We have no interest in SCUE which is just an instrument of international capitalism to avoid taxes.




We know, therefore we did not ask you for your opinion.

But since you bring it up, is your system forum based,

using a mod? How is it working for you, well? Well, it is

at least better than no system at all or 'MEG'. Perhaps

we can work out an exchange rate some day.
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