I'm very angry...

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Harvey
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Re: I'm very angry...

Post by Harvey »

I'm not really sure what you want us to do about things like this. Like Chris says, some of the territory comes inherent with sharing forums. I feel that you seem to be taking a stand on extremely insignificant things that were rarely, if ever, enforced in Shireroth such as the signature law in order to try to find holes in Bastion's design. As I and others have already pointed out, you can enforce this law within Shireroth just fine.

About the second point... I only see one poach attempt (Andreas's) and he says it's a joke that Scott will get. So, um, got nothin'.

The third and fourth are a speculative opinion about a future that has not come to pass and I do not believe will come to pass without everyone screaming bloody murder. Shared foreign affairs and legislatures just won't ever happen. That is NOT natural slide territory. I feel that the only thing Bastion lacks right now is a structure for making group decisions. NOT a way to oppress the states or render their legislatures moot, but a way that we can come together and decide things as a whole such as about that religious forum. Dictator Ari will provide a stopgap here, but sooner or later we need something solid. You gotta remember, Bastion is a YAMO, but almost all YAMOs have charters. We have nothing of the sort. We're just winging it. At first it worked pretty darn well. But if you're not happy, then I guess that means the period of winging is close to ending.

I feel that the nations will survive on their own merits. If you have people that are interested in posting things about Shireroth, they'll post them. If they don't, then they won't. But that was always true before Bastion as well and it will be true after it. With Shireroth, as always, you have a dedicated core of people that are willing to talk, breathe, and post Shireroth. I could be so f'ing lucky with Nelaga.

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Scott Alexander
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Re: I'm very angry...

Post by Scott Alexander »

Erik has a point. Anyone who says "it's just a forum" is not only missing Erik's point but the point of the whole Bastion project to begin with. Bastion has developed a will of its own, and is drawing us together for its unknown purposes whether we like it or not. I think it's a benevolent godling, but with godlings you can never be sure.

Our similarities are greater than our differences, but then our differences are also interesting and worth protecting. This is a matter that requires careful thought. In particular I wonder if the time might not be ripe for a single-cit policy or a primary-cit policy in one or many Bastion nations.

But it's late and I'm too tired to think carefully, so I'm just gonna say "We've tried not-Bastion for a while, so now let's try Bastion. Then we can write nifty histories about it after it goes down in flames."

PS: All this "We're obviously never going to have a unified foreign policy" stuff is going to look really embarrassing when we get a unified foreign policy.
Last edited by Scott Alexander on Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Octavius
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Re: I'm very angry...

Post by Octavius »

Well, I wouldn't say the attitude is "we're obviously never going to have a unified foreign policy" but more of "there's no reason to assume that a unified foreign policy would ever happen."
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Harvey
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Re: I'm very angry...

Post by Harvey »

I don't see why we'd ever need fully unified foreign affairs. Maybe we could have people greet unknown nations and say something like "Hi, I'm from Shireroth, who's a big part of Bastion. And though I only speak officially for Shireroth, I'll bet those other guys would like to get you to you better too." or something, but as far as reacting to events and such, why would any nation ever want any other nation to have an influence on that?

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Orion
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Re: I'm very angry...

Post by Orion »

I'm very curious to hear what the complaints are about the FNORDs. I did my utmost to be as unbiased as possible, provide sound reasoning to my choices, and fully research every choice I made as thoroughly as possible. I don't think you can do much more than that. Maybe I'm wrong. I dunno. But it just sits badly with me when someone says they feel slighted by what is intended as a feel-good community reward ceremony. To me the FNORDs have always been a way to say "Thank you, we really care about what you do for this hobby!", not some sort of self-gratifying old boys club.


That aside, I think Erik's predictions for the future of Bastion (meaning now equates to a future merger) has some valid basis. The same thoughts are the first to come to my mind whenever I look at this place. It seems inevitable that, at some point down the road, there will be a merger of some sort. And who knows, it may be the best thing in the world and prove all of the cynics (myself included) to be dead wrong. Or it could flop and people go their separate ways. Either way it always seems that these things become do-or-die situations where you can't find a comfortable middle ground. This ad hoc approach that has taken place here seems to have found that middle ground. The longevity of Bastion relies on maintaining that middle ground. If it can be successfully incorporate that into a merger, then why not? There's really no appreciable excuse to reject a merger at this point - none of the nations involved are the sole work of an individual, and instead transcend to embody a work of the whole community. Five years ago one-man-nations were a dime a dozen and that was a different story. People would cling to their nations in a death grip back then; whereas now there is more community-centric focus.

This is not to say a merger is certain to happen. But as I already said, there's no appreciable reason for it not to happen - meaning the barriers cited opposing a merger would not be very difficult to overcome. But only if that's what people wanted, since otherwise it would defeat the purpose of merging in the first place. Mergers like Tymaria were tense from the start and destined to fail, coupled with people who maintained a do-or-die attitude with no middle ground for compromise. Bastion on the other hand is very laissez faire and provides ample middle ground with people who, obviously, are willing to bend over backwards to make a single voice happy. That is something truly unique to our history in this hobby.

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Shyriath
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Re: I'm very angry...

Post by Shyriath »

I don't have anything very specific to contribute to this, except to say that history is chock-full of things that developed in directions that no one, especially their creators, would ever have guessed. Just because there's no actual reason for it to do so doesn't mean that, sooner or later, it won't happen anyway. Never underestimate the power of suddenly emergent behavior.

That said, I don't think the governmental structures of the four nations have shown any concrete signs of ceding formal power to the Bastion Union, and don't seem likely to in the near future. On the level of perception of what the Union is, I personally have been treating it as a convenience. As a Shirerithian, I can now see what is going on in three other fairly awesome nations without hassle, and interact with them in ways that I wouldn't have bothered to before; and to the extent that I have a desire to see things go further than that, it's vaguely hoping we could get some other awesome nations to join so that the convenience of interacting with them could be increased as well. But I'm still a Shirerithian first, and intend to remain so for the foreseeable future (although "Bastionado" is a fun enough term that I may find excuses to use it now and then). If a merger happens at some point, it happens; but it's not happening right now, and there's no point in pushing for it.
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Re: I'm very angry...

Post by Gerk »

And as long as I am a citizen of Gralus, I will not allow for it to cede political power to a higher entity. I mean, we're already an empire of various provinces, no need to make it more complex. I like that this merger has given me the chance to interact with new people, but I don't want it to go any farther than that.

And to address the concern about forum admining becoming a democratic process, all I have to say to that is NO. And I'm a guy that tends to believe in democracy (as long as the participants are generally intelligent). But admin powers are just one thing that will NOT work under a democratic system. I mean, it's nice for an admin to ask the forum users about a change before he makes it, especially if it's a major thing, but we shouldn't be voting on forum admin stuff.
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Re: I'm very angry...

Post by Thadeus Laing »

If Erik isn't happy with Bastion, then maybe Erik should be Bastion's new Secretary-General-for-Life. Granted Bastion only does forums and shared diplomacy, but he would have complete control over those areas.

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Re: I'm very angry...

Post by Andreas the Wise »

Can I just say that I would have told Scott to join Nelaga whatever nation he became a citizen of, whether we were sharing a forum or not. If he joined A1, I'd still tell him to join Nelaga. That's just because I think he's putting off the inevitable :p, and I liked it when he was in Nelaga. It's absolutely nothing personal to Shireroth.

But I also think this is a helpful discussion to have now. By talking about how we don't want to become a merger, we can recognise the ways we could and now actively avoid them.
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Re: I'm very angry...

Post by Erik Mortis »

Ryan: Let's just say I feel the research on one of the awards was... lacking.

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Jonas
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Re: I'm very angry...

Post by Jonas »

Gerk wrote: And to address the concern about forum admining becoming a democratic process, all I have to say to that is NO. And I'm a guy that tends to believe in democracy (as long as the participants are generally intelligent). But admin powers are just one thing that will NOT work under a democratic system.
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Re: I'm very angry...

Post by Demon of Fides »

I like the Bastion award idea... Remind me to do up some pretty colours by June...
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Re: I'm very angry...

Post by Jonas »

Demon of Fides wrote:I like the Bastion award idea... Remind me to do up some pretty colours by June...
Yeah, because we're a cool community... :8 =p
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Re: I'm very angry...

Post by Ryker »

You guys were weird...
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Harvey
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Re: I'm very angry...

Post by Harvey »

Saving the sector was worth it.

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Re: I'm very angry...

Post by Vilhelm Benkern »

Eh.
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